puff is sooooo goooood.

Delayed double jumps are a game changer. Enables everything I want out of this character. More and better mixups available at a mucchhhh higher frequency.
You need godlike spacing to pull it off but that is already requirement number 1 for her.

mangopuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z8OHZZLg3Q
a little more 2013 mangopuff footage

Debug Mode Stuff

Debug Mode Stuff from this week.


* Hitting shield does not stale moves.

* Fox’s SHDL takes 29 frames

* Fox’s sideB landing lag: 21

* upB fire: active every other frame from 20-32 

fiyaaas at 43 (so there’s no risk of trading/losing to fire at the beginning/end)

only 3 frames of landing lag

* falco’s shl takes minimum 27

* 20 frames of sideB landing lag

* 3 frames of upB landing lag

* fiyaaa on 43

If fox DI’s upthrow full out you obv can’t rest it.

* DI in front is easy, just SH uair regrab/rest (watch out ‘cause if he’s really smart he’ll DI the upair backwards)

* DI behind is a lot harder. With full DI there doesn’t appear to be a guaranteed followup (If the DI isn’t full then upair/regrab is still best). By the time you can turn around and get there he can jump before you can uair/pound. I like smash turn dash run jc grab but he can jump out/probably bair me.

*
___ is minimum active OoS on:

Rest: 6

Grab: 7 

Upsmash: 8

Drill: 10

Nair: 11

Fair: 12

Bair: 14

Uair: 14

WD Grab: 22

WD Fsmash: 27

Sing (lol): 29

Dropping Shield takes 14 frames. You can begin any action on frame 15.

* puff’s stand to crouch takes 2 frames to get under human grab (so you can crouch under grabs with -5 frames or better)

* ~20 frames to hit/rest marth out of shield in between his double fairs depending on when he hits you. Very doable. Obv more if you don't have to shield/it whiffs.

* marth’s AC nair can’t hit crouching puff (he has to ff)

* AC fair can hit crouching puff but is restable if CCed 'cause it's a rising aerial.

* You have 11 actionable frames after shieldstun in between hits of sheik’s fsmash, 12 after

* Her uptilt (assuming the first hit connects, which is unlikely) has 11 actionable frames after shieldstun in between hits and a surprising 0 after hit 2.

* in 12 frames in SH (including jumpsquat) you move a tangential 45 degrees upward puff diameter.

So from __o__ to the asterisk in  _*o__

So if you have 12 frames out of shield stun you can rest anything in this V shaped range. _*o*_ Obv. more if more, less if less.

I'm working on a table that lists how safe things are on shield (to make OoS actions flowchartable) but it takes a really long time.
Preview: Spacies are unreasonably good lol.

marth edgeguard

marth edgeguard (via hbox)

a little weird but it just sort of works

1. aim to grab ledge as he falls below ledge height. If he sideBs you’ll have inv

2. immediately let go, jump backwards with fair (this input is a little hard). If he jumps this will stuff it. 

3. regrab will give you inv if he upBs on stage, let go dj rest

4. if he waits to sweetspot(/sideB then sweetspot) react to the sound (to distinguish) and roll when appropriate

might have to do an extra refresh if he’s far enough out.

if he’s at a good angle/situation you can fall off with inv fair and bump him out for the kill
reverse fair bair combos super super easy on marth/falcon

Hbox vs Duffy Analysis

HBOX VS DUFFY MARTH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT5ybD0mOH8

partial 'cause this isn't as useful as I thought it would be.

7:58 marth doesn’t CC = more bairs

7:55 that nair was CC grab/fsmash(?) (restable if crouched under), crouch would have beat fair range too

7:54 if there’s tempo to crouch next to marth’s shield it doesn’t seem like a bad idea

7:52 prioritize stage > hits

7:36 covering roll covered all the other options well too

easy edgeguard ‘cause he burned his dj

7:18 wow that dair missed. Restable.

7:13 restable.

7:09 hits the space right in front of marth ‘cause what’s he gonna do? WD forward shield?

marth hasn’t been able to DD partly cause he’s just getting stuck in the corner/his shield

but he isn’t choosing to when he can either

6:53 slightly too early to steal ledge

6:45 watch for those roll backs they’re easy to rest/bair

6:42 picture of a king rest

6:30 he starts moving and what do you know hbox freaks out and dies

6:12 easy techchase rest

he’s so pleased with himself….

 Duffy doesn’t actually use the lateral space or DD/hbox doesn’t give a shit when he does so PS isn’t worth doing.

But

5:24

instead of unfollowupable uptilt hbox follows up upair with another upair then a wop

maybe could have upair rested but unsure of % where that stops being true combo

Hbox vs Dart Analysis

HBOX DART GENESIS 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLQx3nlw-DY

Dart doesn’t DD so there’s a lot missing

BF

8:00 P2 puff can auto fall through BF? Nice. Possible rest lol.

lots of deliberate whiff punishing

7:40 why does no one DI like this for me? They probably do and I’m not ready for it.

7:29 wow that spacing

7:10 andale rest

7:09 perfect incremental spacing

wow even up to the platform that’s brutal

7:02 hbox hasn’t lost position/tempo yet

7:01 opportunity to marth edgeguard (grab letgo fair regrab) instead he gets ledge

hbox is jumping staggered response to the ledge actions

6:56 hbox moves over a bit to preserve bair/position adv even with top platform marth

but loses ‘cause he doesn’t turn his back fast enough on crossup

6:51 there is is

6:40 just outside of tipper makes it easy to punish jumps

6:24 wow drill is good at high %

6:19 when above marth you just have to make sure to come down just outside of aerial arc and you’re fine. Tight spacing but it’s that simple.

6:16 note the WD out to get good position rather than a hit

wop enabled by in place bairs (no fadeback or in) and jumpless marth

6:05 looked like a king rest

6:00 free grab or rest

when marth is in the air never first

5:50 pound actually is perfect response to the hop

5:49 no shield vs dash because marth had nothing but now he has dash grab so spot dodge?

ah, that edgeguard is easy and hard at the same time? Probably just practice. Marth should die every time.

FoD

7:58 get out of dtilt range if not riggght next to marth ‘cause he’ll want it

7:52 easy

7:48 can you fair marth’s AC fair? Is that something I’m getting punished for?

7:14 was that a good sakurai ledgejump?

6:50 grabs when marth falls past ledge height

wow, crazy

6:27 grabs, punishes the sideB

remember sleepyk says every sideB is punishable if you’re anywhere close

drops it by respecting the jump even though he’s invincible, pretty sure

6:12 can’t crossup with that bair in like any MU

6:07 grabs after the sideB (gets there as marth falls below ledge height), let go fair covers dj to stage, regrab

5:31 look how vulnerable his feet are

Prince Abu vs Wenbo Analysis

Wenbo vs Abu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrj1Vr5Zemk

* Wenbo doesn’t know that he can just bair all of the unprotected jumps for free damage. Set would have gone sooo differently if he did.

* Abu’s WDes are frequently too short so good WDes become bad

* Abu does a lot of high aerials, too high to do anything but get baired/hit a fox that decides to jump for no reason

* Upairs on shield/without explicit purpose are really bad. Even if they go unpunished they keep you from being able to space for too long.

* Because you essentially have to go through your entire jump arc before upair can hit a grounded fox (it’s pretty much a disjointed tangental puff above you) it will generally never connect unless you are already right above them when they whiff. You can’t whiff punish with it without lucky timing or a hard preemptive read.

* Plus if you can fall on top of them and Uair you can probably fall on top of them and Rest.

* Pound at 0 can literally get you killed even if it hits. It is never ok.

* I am quickly falling out of love with nair. The hitbox loses to everything so it’s like upair in that it’s a garbage move unless confirmed. You shouldn’t risk your stock so frequently hoping they don’t know to wait and grab.

* Zoning with aerials is likely (not always but likely) a copout that says “I don’t know where to position/I haven’t practiced spacing in this situation.”

* you can manipulate tighter spacing by leaving your aerials empty when possible and wavelanding

* Don’t not DI behind fox when he upthrows. I don’t know why puffs (myself included) like to DI in front of him and make his job so easy.

* on his respwan go up to side as he comes down and aim to come down as he comes up. Burns his time and can put him in a bad spot. Much better than planking.

* on close whiff nair think fair

BF

7:53 guesses sh laser and wenbo does nothing so same result

just wait for the techchase you have a long time to confirm the jab.

suboptimal pound anyway that’s fishing.

7:52 think about that uair. I do it, abu does it, everyone does it. Why? Is there ever close to enough stun on bair? I only only only ever hit baddies with that. So remove it. It locks them in shield (if they shield) for long enough for Absolutely Nothing to happen afterward (unless they’re like, falcon so the shield damage is worth it). Am I wrong?

Even Drill is better? At least empty land grab initially.

7:50 I think you can Andale rest (ASDI down to cancel hitstun with land then rest) that bair but not sure. Definitely if lower. Generally SDI all fox’s aerials down at low % seems good.

7:18 nice grab. The shield made me and probably wenbo think bair?

but way too high % for upthrow obv

5:54 that familiar situation where you WD back and fox still grabs you. I think that’s a cue to fair his face.

5:52 ooh nice CC fsmash

PS

7:51 puff is almost dead because she pounded fox at 0.

7:46 could have shield poked again on other side if wenbo didn’t tilt down. Vulnerable on back foot. 

7:43 could have SDIed the jab down and away and fsmashed because fox had to run

7:12 hbox nairs are punishable and keep you from spacing.

7:05 if you know the upsmash is coming punish rather than avoid

7:04 super obvious bair, shield then rest it/grab the land

6:47 running away wayyy too late. CC grab or shield or something. Anything.

6:44 good example of an aerial that keeps you from spacing/punishing fox’s land

6:33 CC grab/fsmash maybe

6:12 debatably died off of position conversion from hitting fox with pound at 0.

6:03 if you can hit that tech away (with another pound?) then pound becomes “suboptimal” instead of “straight bad.” I don’t know if you can or not. Unconvinced.

5:51 might have jumped slightly too early. Jump when he falls past ledge. Grabbing ledge would have killed him but he should have been able to go on stage if he reacted.

burned the opportunity on an impossible guess though.

FOD

7:10 didn’t cover sweetspot but looking again I think that was a reaction to high

good wait for firefox, faded back in last second so trade

djs so messes up but so does wenbo

7:03 I don’t like having to go off stage vs inv it gives fox the whole stage from the getgo

6:59 I think that DI out and grab is better vs drill than di out spotdodge but don’t know

6:57 absolutely perfect place to be, above where nair will land, but wastes it

6:53 absolutely perfect timing on jump back (jump when fox falls past ledge) to cover all options. Could have easily recognized that he fell too far to dj to stage and grabbed ledge = dead fox at 20%.

6:35 another perfect edgeguard but he didn’t roll.

6:37 I think puff should replace preemptive dashes with preemptive WDs. Could have been a grab.

6:32 resting fox’s upsmash needs to be muscle-memory. It’s a freebie. Execution is an arbitrary barrier.

6:10 free CC grab, WD was too late (that’s a tight reaction anyway)

5:40 fox starts firefox inside of falco range so he is gimpable

plus don’t leave ledge uncontested, cover ledge/you with a bair then react if he goes high

YOSHIS

7:51 had an additional moment to react

7:33 CC grab

7:01 yeah, if there’s time, falling next to them then jump initial fair is superior to falling on them with fair

6:53 upthrow? I guess he doesn’t want to trade stocks but I would.

also wtf option was he trying to cover with sh bair? ggs

6:50 yooo sick grab

and now he chooses upthrow lol

6:18 chooses to FH upair probably to avoid rest not killing at 0 but was reactable sh upair regrab (or waveland/techchase rest if DI right)

6:17 ooh smart to recognize WD grab

lots of kill opportunities in here

6:07 just wait for the endlag

lots more killable fox

6:22 ok reactions more or less off the bair techchase, was the nair good? Covered a lot of options. Maybe lost to upsmash oos

6:22 he obv has to dj to ledge

6:05 many of these FH aerials on respawn, what are their purpose? They can’t hit anything but a jump that would be better punished by grabbing the land.

Bask In the ****ing Glory

MangoPuff vs S2J Summer of 2013

Hbox vs Zero Analysis

Hbox vs Zero (Evo 14)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spLTUzPLnQA

8:00 non neutral start

weird fair. To prevent FH nair?

Zero just takes laser stance

hbox’s nair is interesting because in response to the dash back it’s either safe vs runaway lasers or hits the DD

but it whiffs, lol. Should have SH as if to nair then do it on confirmation.

7:58 hbox gets shined trying to do something

rolls in assuming run forward, rolls back ‘cause he’s freaked out, zero lasers…

7:55 hbox nairs to cover laser in place/approach. Jump starts as zero is falling from previous laser

late reaction to fox nair (crouch grab opportunity)

so when fox jumps at you jumping is not allowed. When he jumps not at you that’s your cue to jump.

when he runs at you fair it

7:54 zero drills for some reason hbox just backs off but goes too far imo

definitely can’t punish anything now let alone the drill

ok so hbox is deliberately timing fh nairs to fall into a rhythm with the lasers. Jump just after his jump and you can land with him.

but if he runs instead of jumps you’re in a bad spot so make sure to confirm it.

i.e. these two hbox nairs (a nair that’s easily easily grabbed on land)

7:52 spotdodges the nair thats funny but yeah that’s gonna lose to shine just CC grab

rolls in rolls back again, zero doesn’t wait

lmaoooo zero dies from that?

7:46 hbox goes straight to the side platform.

then jumps up into the stratosphere for no reason?

I mean, it’s working out but only because zero shows no intention to do anything but fish for 3% lasers instead of 15% bairs…

7:43 zero goes to punish landing but (badly spaced) nairs instead of grab or DD so he gets backthrown

no attempt at an edgeguard

I think every option was reactable off of an empty sh backwards there

7:39 hbox uptilts assuming no waveland. Maybe would have at worst traded with drill.

zero airdodges so he gets upaired but sdis down so no rest

djs to avoid followup upair after panic jump, falls after hbox and bairs

zero backs off and lasers to hbox can be less carefull about how he gets back to center

(but like jon said, arriving at center is a big moment)

yeah, because he’s clearly lost tempo when he lands hbox has to fade away to avoid the incoming aerial but does so with enough buffer to maybe get a punish

zero spotdodges it,

hbox is hesitating over to the side don’t blame him that is an odd spot but probably should have immediately assumed bair stance

zero goes top platform

hbox nair that doesn’t actually do shit about it

a FH nair catches zero jumping. That actually covers a lot of space even if there’s time for a full fox sh before it gets there. Unsure if good.

No need to tech, zero gets faired I think holding down.

Hbox second guesses and gets naired.

Unable to get tempo so stuck in corner.

7:28

Hbox Nair but spaced out/zero is slow so gets faired. Functions as a bait.

crossup uair, wasn’t gonna hit

forces shield, I think hbox guessed retroactive bair oos so tried to crossup bair but doesn’t crossup so they both drop it

7:25 lol zero sees that he dropped an easy land punish runs back and gets baired

techchase opportunity, hbox guesses missed tech and gets the bair. I think had time for jab recet on confirmation.

djs so drops the easy fair edgeguard.

7:22 catches zero shielding (assuming some unspaced falling aerial?) with a good tomahawk grab

shine off stage is an invitation to fill the space above them with an aerial but stuck in WD I think

no attempt at edgeguard, guesses high but high is still coverable after covering ledge.

7:19 guesses waveland on platform, backs off

7:18 bair would have worked reverse nair is not good for that

backs off again, zero freaks out then does the same but now hbox has tempo

does another reverse nair, I think he’s looking for nair fsmash

gets DD grabbed.

DIs the throw back zero spaces the upair extremely well

7:08 comes down centerish and makes zero pick a side/shield, guesses he will jump out

zero slips up and walks into bair

really bad edgeguard again

zero represents both wavelands

lmaoooo then sakurai gets up and gets whacked in the face 

Another abysmal edgeguard what a bunch of morons

7:00

invincible bair is sooo good

hbox thinks he can get out of hitstun early enough to fair, zero runs away rather than challenge/claim his free uptilt

hbox goes all in on a dash attack gets shined, then grabbed after a correct DD

DIs the throw backwards, zero is slow to jump?

6:54 hbox nair oooh but it’s actually early so it was a feint? A fake hbox nair? Probably not in conception. Should have been naired? zero false starts because of it and gets baired

6:48 free bair on firefox startup but hbox gets nervous and abandons his all in on it

he’s not jumping with tempo so he’s losing a lot of situations

6:44 hbox is weaving back in unorthodox places

6:38 finally gets handed the stock lol

oh gosh I’m wrong.

no tempo so he’s dropping all this as well.

6:28 that high fadeback nair is working vs zero I don’t think he recognizes it for what it is

6:25 ……. top 6 in the world.

6:21 habitually goes to the side platform but doesn’t react to zero and bairs a bunch of empty space

looks for the fake hbox nair but it’s not there

yeah he’s spamming it like crazy lol

zero is committing to his 3%s instead

it’s safe to incrementally move forward when fox is moving back?

6:12 catches a jump with a bair

I think that zero saw a non-fadeback aerial and assumed punish despite it being spaced/tempoed

hbox saw the DD and assumed “not SH laser”

they both stumble into a uair but hbox reverses the grab

6:09 sucky place to be WDing

6:08 hbox recognizes the upsmash and weaves around it but too slwly

easy buffered roll away from the slow grab

hbox jumps back in case a hitbox is coming

his jump forward would be bairable but zero is too busy lasering

6:03 I have no idea what they’re thinking. If they’re thinking, I guess.

6:01 ooh zero learned? 

Hbox DIs the throw backward, zero overcompensates the spacing (to beat demo kirby DI) then lets him back

lmao he just sh lasers the wrong way, runs back and forth wondering what to do and gets pounded

(in this case I think upward angled pound was better than down? Unsure)

trade stocks

5:58

yeah just make fox pick a side

gets a bair for fox picking slow

fox almost runs into an uptilt

repeat uptilt for no reason. I hate it when hbox does that. He just throws shit (Shit. Absolute fecal matter.) out there hoping that you’ll run into enough of them to make his net gain high enough to be worth it. He does it constantly and it’s annoying.

Top 6 worldwide ladies and gentleman.

5:45 bad aerials, zero doesn’t grab the land

they’re both slow

5:43 hbox tries to falling upair and gets shined

Good DD by zero, No DI on the throw, zero prioritizes lasers to punishing the fall…

gets pounded doing a bad sh laser, hits tech

5:35 do you have to guess to get these bairs?

hbox hesitates and drops the second one, gets nair nair upsmashed, maybe could have sdi’ed a nair up

zero jumps in with upair slightly too early for the trick to work

also doesn’t confirm the need for bair so hbox punishes it

5:37 edgeguard opportunity but hbox guesses a trigger jump instead and gives it up

guesses correctly on immediate get on stage

steals ledge (‘cause who is going to do anything else there?)

too slow on letgo fair

5:21 protects recovery with bair, gambles with hbox nair but once it isn’t baired it gets him safe ledge.

More bairs could have easily done that

lol then he gives it up

5:19 catches zero being a little greedy

misses his followups

5:15 I think that nair had to be a read? I wonder if nair is synonymous with fair vs running past nair range after a %?

read the shit out of that roll looks like but didn’t do anything

5:08 ok so look at how hbox is jumping then choosing what to do after the jump based on if fox jumps or runs

5:05 another dropped edgeguard

It’s like the moment he’s a stock up/a minute in he stops playing melee and starts playing “well it’s ok as long as one of these kills him eventually.”

GAME 2

Maybe later. Too much moron for one day, it’s tiring.

Unless he’s way far away:

* When fox jumps at you jumping is not allowed. 

* When he jumps not at you then jump at him.

Hbox vs Rojo analysis

Hbox vs Rojo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66-pr5ys9Yo

7:59 immediately threatens the sh laser

hbox tries to make sh laser as unsafe as possible

pokes at the shield because at that range he has no options in the next moment

7:57 bad shield makes reaction to land impossible

WD forward to make space?

Rojo hightails it and hbox fh bairs immediately to close space

Note that exact spacing. Puff at FH height above where sh nair would land. Safe/reactable. If fox chooses wrong then he gets hit with at least 12%.

Rojo lasers as hbox is coming down like an idiot

maybe could have gotten grab

7:55

lol look at how automatically hbox keeps bair spacing

dj = upair but too far out/early

bair is too late and rojo jumps over twice

hbox is careful to never relieve pressure so far

7:53 No AC so he gets dash attacked

mashes the hell out of bair, rojo spotdodges it lol

maybe could have pivot grabbed

7:51

roll in enabled by fox idiotically leaving his DD

hbox goes for fh bair spacing, but because of endlag sh would have been better I think

rojo’s jump out was bad but sqeezes through

hbox chooses to wait for the land, whiffs, rojo hightails it again

7:49

hbox immediately fh bairs, would that have hit sh nair? Prob

7:48

upair is too late

gets grabbed, no DI

they both fuck up

rojo doesn’t take the freee bair

hbox is a second behind lol

7:44

accidentally free bair but right spacing to get it

easy grab, goes for dash attack maybe assuming at tech % (30)

cheesy upsmash maybe to cover grab, cheesy choices

7:42

shields the bair, chooses nair oos, bad choice but works

even on hit gets upsmashed

at 35% (was 34) would have forced tumble but it’s frame 12 anyway should have gotten shined

7:40

rojo is slow

easy bair

hbox sees that dj ledge is impossible and covers dj sideB

should have been able to snipe the upB or at least fsmash it

(is it possible to jump out with fair on reaction to no on-stage sideB?)

hbox is scrambling so he tries to contest it instead of sharking the land

he crossup bairs instead of uair, safer. Better?

rojo hightails it

7:35

really bad nair will lose to fox nair 10/10xs

rojo doesn’t followup

7:32

shields the bair then WD out fsmash, dunno if that’s good vs bair but seems like it

bair and high aerial are sort of the same

lmao really hbox? You were too slow? or were you too busy debating showing off?

waits it out and grabs the fumbly land but misses lol

now he’s just fishing

DIs the throw back, rojo drops it and gets baired

hbox should have gotten baired for committing to platform land

7:21

premature ledgegrab prevents invincible letgo fair

actually could have just stood up and fsmashed he couldn’t have sweetspotted

7:17 retreats to ledge vs inv. Always suboptimal imo

also should have been baired for too early fair

7:13 two hbox nairs. Horrible. Second one prevents bair punish on sh lasers

7:12 doesn’t react to the dj so misses a huggge punish opportunity

lol they both just jump around and rojo doesn’t bair untill hbox upairs

I think that was a free rest. falling upair loses most of the time it’s a bad habit.

7:08 very questionable recovery

um, horrible upsmash

rojo has proven that he can’t actually upthrow upair lol

7:04 weird mistakes maybe?

unorthodox drill but if linked to grab amazing. Instead missed l-cancel

hangs around wayyy too close/long to the stage up there recovering

7:00 fair toward the stage would be better if you wouldn’t have to land I think.

takes way too long with all of those actions off ledge and loses tempo

Are rojo’s empty FHs missed upsmashes?

Puff in the corner sucks. Should prioritize getting out. Spotdodge when left with no choice?

There was borderline time to fair the grab

6:56 DIs the throw backward

fox is too late jumping again and gets baired

they both whiff, hbox because he fell too far

6:54 falling drill ‘cause landing too far behind to grab. Forces shield. Look up frame data on that.

6:52 gets shined trying to shield grab bair. Look up frame data on that

Missing tech on shine sucks. Pick your poison based on %? In which case gettup attack is best here because grab doesn’t lead to upthrow anymore I think.

6:49 backs off to avoid getting baired

6:48 should waveland on, fair hbox nair is begging to be grabbed

6:47 weird backwards jump, don’t understand

6:45 when fox is on the platform stand outside of runnoff spacing

rojo hands hbox the stock

6:35 seems hard for puff to do much with inv

probably try to anticipate the top platform and be ready to catch the descent instead of fish for aerials

a la hbox lol

6:32 I don’t get it. If you think he’s gonna sit in shield why don’t you just grab him? I guess that is a mango thing but rojo hasn’t proven especially willing to sit still. He’s mostly just proven that he’ll empty jump at any given moment lol.

6:30 doesn’t wait for confirmation so gets grabbed

DIs the throw back

almost gets a fair off the low hitstun

potential andale rest with sdi down onto the platform lol

6:28 weaves around the bair on seeing the fallthrough but doesn’t punish

easy grab on the drill but bairs instead (safer but from top platform reactable punish)

6:25 easy upair but eh %

yeah, asdis down and shields

woah how did that uptilt hit? Rojo dropped for some reason, that wasn’t a poke

Amazing reaction to the asdi down no tech geeze

yeah I would have run and missed that grab too lol

no time to sh follow from a missed jab

6:23 hbox chooses to WD back shield when losing to tempo approach there

rojo misses a bunch of inputs and gets baired

no tech but has to land so hbox can bair again. Ok, so that’s a really good hbox setup? Unsure if could have shielded

6:20 he definitely has to tech that one so empty land next to it. Hbox goes too far to keep adv then reacts too slowly to spotdodge to get tempo

oh geeze those bairs took up all the stage available to rojo

should have immediately grabbed ledge (‘cause he went too far down to sideB to stage) then fallen with a fair

6:13 going up to side platform at same time as fox is coming down looks pretty good

yeah then you fall through and fish for the end of his inv

6:10 easy grab.

Hm. At 0 upthrow techchase? Seems better than the all-in on a guess.

or backthrow grab ledge is maybe ok? ‘cause you’re trying to cheese him anyway.

He can def just doublejump on stage. Don’t know what’s reactable. Probably just stick to flowchart that we know is reactable?

Hbox guesses the dj back which is likely but I think that just grabbing ledge gives you time to react to that and covers the not-idiot option

in any case empty jump with him would have netted a bair

6:08

hbox goes straight to bair spacing after he drops the edgeguard

rojo goes high, whiff punish bair

hbox uptilts probably assuming flub from not having to tech. Better options for that. Upsmash/pivot grab is faster

gets spotdodged

hail mary upsmashes

missed tech jab rest

but messes up lol

6:00

missed DI on upthrow

fox is slow gets baired,

same situation, this time attempt at fallthrough upair, meh just as supoptimal as uptilt lol

shields the bair, rolls out between missed l cancel and shine, so wd fsmash maybe? Need data.

5:57 hbox nair but rojo moves his face into it instead of grabbing the land

hbox jabs instead of grab

then backs off and bairs to induce shield I think?

or maybe it was to punish a potential spotdodge had rojo recognized the grab setup?

bad crossup rightfully gets baired

really bad DI

now he’s just throwing out aerials ‘cause he’s got 3 stocks to burn

vs xarann friendlies analysis

VS XARANN FRIENDLIES
very not serious but still want to look for some things in the MU I'm thinking about

7:59, free bair

7:57 good bair after uair but rather than react I assume another and he gets out

his shield is already pokable so could have landed next to him and uptilted

7:55 a rest or an upair had I drifted onto him, then uptilt rest

7:53 useless nair, should have landed outside of grab range then like WDed forward

7:52, sneaking under that upair even if have to asdi it down for rest?

7:49 didn’t respect possibility of bair, grab ledge

he does it again but I’m hanging around down there instead of using inv

even the bairs don’t take advantage of inv

possibly unsafe crossup

7:45, land in front of him, what’s he going to do?

7:40 lol read was too early, but obvious grab opportunity after

what was that nair’s purpose? Easy bair.

HOrrrrible pound

Then you do it again!

7:33 should bair esp because of his landing lag

7:32 WD into his shield not out, another probably useless nair

7:26 fair makes me uncomfortable probably ledgedash

could have just ducked after the fair, remember that duck is as good as shield vs grounded falcon

nair was so-so

no need to jump at all when he does

pretty shitty DI

7:20 fair was obv mistake bair, kelvin is cc grabbing

he’s not going to jump out of shield when you’re not grounded so don’t waste pressure covering that

7:17 freee grab

7:12 techchase rest or grab

you jump into his bair, should have been below sharking anyway

7:09 freee grab

7:04 upair would have poked with no dj

7:00 he saw the crossup

6:51 we all know that was a fsmash

6:22 nair was a bair

WD in instead of bair? well he is cornered

you aren’t moving as quick as possible after the AC

6:20 get stuck in upair landing lag, don’t react to his sh

(you should just sheild when he jumps, what’s he going to do other than stomp?)

6:18 dtilt was a grab

6:12 screw up, get caught on platform, eat stomp

6:09 that bair bought you a lot of space but you give it up, don’t have to zone that far away from him

6:08 perfect time to empty land grab

6:06 nair was a grab, what’s that nair even going to do for you?

5:57 lol that was all really really really unsafe

5:55 uptilt, although I guess I was expecting asdi down

slow reaction to stomp

PS is whatever I want

maybe all stomps are restable?

5:50 rest oos

dude you didn’t even space that nair

5:48 second fair should have been empty grab, i think

5:46 late reaction to outspacing his bair

easy shield his knee, don’t assume he’ll miss…

5:42 idiot pound, stop doing that if you know it’s bad you’re just prolonging the habit lol

5:36 woahhhh, spaced nair loses to stomp? well ok then. Better quit that.

5:34 land with and grab opportunity

5:33 no need to dj for that bair

5:20 same dumb pound

the fair isn’t any safer, lol

5:13 huh that was interesting

should have crossed him up after

5:09, at least downward angle it

he calls your fadeback

5:00f free rest before he even hits the ground

missed ‘cause you thought you were on the other side of his initial tech spot lol

you don’t have to rest until he’s standing up anyway though

no sdi on the punch

lol same opener 

7:57 guessing bag caught bair startup, no reason not to be CCing those, also would have lead to crouch rest on dsmash

7:55 potential grab or maybe pivot uptilt rest?

7:48, aw free ledgehog

good reactions to the tech opportunity

missed l-cancel messes up wop

no reason to back off there

7:39 should have ledgedashed to avoid potential bair

7:35 I think those nairs lose to upair so they’re not good in this MU

7:32 interesting going off after pushing him to ledge

he could have won with same plan faster reaction?

7:29 clearly should have grabbed ledge and forced out his upB

7:25 just stalk out his land and rest/fsmash or something

7:23 bad fh bair

7:19 probs don’t challenge the bair just wait under him

7:18 could have reacted to him missing faster

7:14 accidental nair

dunno how you missed the fsmash but it was an easy grab ledge I guess

7:11 see him shielding so far away? The empty hop to lower his shield was good but should have baired after (and sooner), no need for drill.

7:09 that could have been bad, should have just landed next to him

7:05 lmao just running with him

dunno why you chose to jump then, easy shield

with the sound cue power shielding it should be easy?

7:02 grab was a little late I think

not a good % or place to dthrow

late bair

a second bair would have let you cross him up then uptilt his feet maybe

miss the fade out on upair, probably wondering if it would hit

6:53 idiot bair

real messy start to next stock

6:45 land next to his shield and engage pressure, if you meant to bait the grab then wait for confirmation don’t just assume and mash uptilt 

potentially bad fh bair. Think it might be stompable, but maybe you can fade through quick enough.

6:36 no shield

6:33 you preemptively stuffed his stomps path but that leaves you open to him dd camping your land keep that in mind

real shitty fishy moves after

6:29 no shield

6:28 grabbable, even CC grabbable probably

6:27 no shield

6:25 he was late, easy grab/rest

one more hit before the uptilt and it would have poked. Maybe dair is better there for that reason?

6:23 all that upair can do is scare him away and force you to have landing lag since his shield is already low but not so low that you are getting ready to break it. If he rolls you’re done. But I guess uptilt does stuff stomp? Or only a late stomp? Would tapion have gotten the stomp out early enough?

you uptilted him grabbing nothing.

6:21 react and bair

6:20 free empty land uptilt, but you stuff it with bair instead

6:18 free rest

6:15 agh, bad fh messes up the pressure, probably free uptilt at that place

6:11 bad spacing on that fair anyway

6:05 wow that asdi down

5:56 idiot pound

no shield

5:51 empty hop grab is probably better for a techchase than sh nair?

5:43 lol

5:34 no fadeback. You can’t change your mind that close to the ground lol

really good sequence after

5:26 rest but I think you were flexing

good grab

5:23 mango nair, not upair

useless sing

idiot pound

5:09 just grab ledge and force him to upB

Canceling Tumble

You can cancel Tumble state at any point after the duration of hitstun with any move/jump.

Puff's Bair and Uair both autocancel if you land by frame 7, so if you mash up or back on the C stick you could potentially do what fox can with lasers.

Currently unsure if applicable in any meaningful cases (seeing as Puff isn't a FFer). Will consider. Potential for additional Andale rest setups.

Puff's Pivot Grab

As Puff if you try to smash turn (DD) later than frame 13 of dash then you will do that awful turn

This means that Pivot Grab can’t be delayed further than (active on) frame 20 (12 frames of dash, 1 frame of pivot, 7 frames of grab startup).

Because Puff’s dash is sooo slow this in turn means that you can only move about 1 puff diameter forward before turning around and grabbing.

Looks like ____OO____ where the blue O is the initial standing puff and the red O is reversed puff that is grabbing the blue space 20 frames later.

All things considered, not a very good option.

However

Dash* WD Standing Turn Grab moves Puff ~2.5 Puff diameters before the turnaround. It is active on frame 24. (1 frame of dash, 5 frames of jumpsquat, 10 frames of special land, 1 frame of (easily buffered) standing turn, 7 frames of grab startup)

Looks like ___O_oO________  where blue O is standing puff, the red O is a reversed puff and the purple o is the grab hitbox at frame 24.

Not amazing but definitely better while only nominally slower considering the situations that call for a pivot grab.

*I haven’t mentioned this explicitly before but 1 frame of dash ensures that you are sliding forward instead of stationary during jumpsquat. It’s a small improvement but an improvement nonetheless and not all that difficult.

recent debug mode stuff

Recent Debug Mode Stuff.

* Consistent 2 inputs of SDI are possible by smashing 16 degrees from a cardinal direction and then rotating 32 degrees (to 16 degrees on the other side). 3 inputs (by rotating back to the first 16 degree mark) are situationally humanely possible but you’re gonna have to be godlike.

*Jigglypuff’s fastest way to travel less than SHFF distance is:

1 frame of Dash > WD > 1 frame of Dash > WD

(this, SHFF, and Dash are all comparable. This way shaves the most frames and while it’s not all that many the difference is more impactful the farther you have to go. The obvious downside is that you’re introducing a lot of non-actionable frames in the WDs. It does however keep you more or less pancaked to the ground almost the whole time. If you’re frame perfect you’ll just see 1 frame flashes of her standing (the dash).)

*Jigglypuff’s fastest way to travel more than SHFF distance is:

1 frame of Dash > SH > Waveland > 1 frame of Dash > SH > Waveland

(this is noticably the fastest way to move across an entire stage. You’ll be surprised. It is potentially impractical to do backwards because you have to release the analog stick to neutral after the waveland to keep from buffering a turnaround. Unsure.)

* Standing turn animation is lengthy but purely aesthetic. It is cancelable (while preserving your new orientation) on frame 2. The one notable exception is jumping, which if you do before frame 6 will start jumpsquat with your original orientation (might be frame 5, don’t remember but it isn’t important because there’s no reason to standing turn jump instead of smash turn jump).

* You can only shield DI during the first half of shieldstun(!)

* Shield DI appears to move you the same distance regardless of if you press horizontally or not quite horizontally. Too far from horizontal and it obviously won’t do anything ‘cause you can’t shield DI into the ground.

* Contrary to popular belief, powershielding does not influence the length or existence of shieldstun. All it does is make GuardOff state (the lowering your shield animation) cancelable into anything you want (assuming that you let go of shield during shieldstun). It does not cancel the animation automatically, it just makes it cancelable.

* Contrary to myth, The duration of Hitstun is not influenced by wiggling your stick or anything like that that I can think of. Once the value is calculated it is set.

* Tumble is cancelable with any move (or jump) after the duration of Hitstun finishes.

(This is why mashing laser is good when hit with samus’s upB. It cancels tumble after the relatively low hitstun before you have to tech and then has no landing lag)