What Is Pushing The Meta?
This is partly a messy question regarding colloquial language but is fun to think about.
I guess first you’d have to define meta. Wikipedia says: "Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game… In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions." Most often in the smash context, I hear metagame used more closely to “The sum of methods and tendencies demonstrated by a character/players.” While they look totally different, both definitions can boil down to something like “In order to win the game against a practiced opponent you have to account for how other characters/individuals are liable to play.”
In my personal experience, I’ve found the following words/definitions most useful in this regard. Keep in mind, words are words, melee is melee. Translating melee to words and words to melee can result in a lot of gray area. It’s up to you to determine what is useful and what isn’t.
STRATEGY
These are overarching themes that lay out your broadest gameplan.
Let’s say that my base strategy vs marth is something like “Patiently space outside of his range to avoid grabs. Bait and then whiff punish swings. Combo him off stage and secure the stock with an edgeguard.”
A strategy should be simple and effective. Ideally it should function vs any marth player you encounter.
TACTICS
These are smaller interactions that fit into your strategy.
I know that when marth jumps he can’t grab, so whenever I see marth jump I run forward to take space. If he uses an aerial then I can shield it and potentially fair or rest afterward. If he doesn’t aerial then it normally resets but with my having a better position than previously.
This tactic is also simple and effective, but clearly only a part in the whole.
MIXUPS/ 50/50S
These are interactions in which I cannot reactively account for every feasible/common action.
When I’m crouching next to marth’s shield he can hit me with his dair on frame 11 or so after jump, which is less than our benchmark 15 for consistently reactable. However, because I can shield in anticipation of the dair, then get a very beefy punish, both I and the marth player have to guess at the other’s intentions based on our match history.
Mixups are good to look at in detail because it is possible to discover alternative options that can cover multiple options (if puff WDs back instead of shields then she can punish at least dair, grab, and roll in). You might even stumble on a single option that can cover every option, at which point you’ve developed a strong tactic.
Strategies are not necessarily infallible. The marth player might have developed his own strats/tactics/mixups that you are not accounting for. That’s really the fun and the challenge of playing fighting games in a large scene. You will constantly be forced to improve your resources or stagnate and fall off as a player.
APPLICATION
I’ve posited that dair spikestun rest can reliably kill, let’s say falco, at relatively low %s. If I demonstrate that getting a dair kills then I should get better results vs falcos. If I integrate dair rest into my game then falco will have to play a bit more evasively to compete, potentially giving puff more stage more often, etc. At this point we could consider the meta moved at least slightly.
Did the spikestun rest discovery actually change the meta? No. As of now, no one has mastered/integrated the technique (or even attempted to for the most part). Dair rest isn’t a real threat for falcos to adjust their gameplan to account for. It is irrelevant so the meta sits.
This is a long-winded way to say that unless you actively use tools they are not relevant. If no one drill rests then no one will be afraid of drill rest. On a more meaningful scale, if YOU don’t drill rest then no one will be afraid of YOUR drill rest. The same can be said for any strat/tactic/etc.
As I understand it, getting good at melee is a two part process.
Step 1) Identify/understand a strategy/tactic/etc. This involves reading, writing, thinking, studying, etc to come up with the best gameplan.
Step 2) Practicing/using the strategies/etc that you’ve developed. Executing what you’ve thought about with the controller in your hands.
You need both parts to succeed. You can’t skip step 1 and you can’t skip step 2. Until you have both any single strat/tactic/etc is incomplete and kept from being truly meaningful.
Until you understand and actively use the tools available to you neither you nor the "meta" that you seem so concerned about moves forward.
Friday, October 23, 2015
Puff on Shield
ON SHIELD NOTES
Puff's bair disjoint and aerial mobility give her a strong zoning game that can easily lock opponents down. But despite the frequency with which characters shield puff players rarely see meaningful rewards. This is not because of a character limitation but because of a poorly developed/understood mixup game.
In my opinion Jigglypuff's mixups on shields are some of the most interesting in melee. Crouch, grab, uptilt, and upair mixups all frequently and reliably combo to rest. However, many OoS options (including grabs, shine, stomp, etc) can get her killed or immediately reset to neutral. In this way the stakes are relatively high and it behooves us to examine these interactions more closely.
It is rare for an opponent to sit in shield for long enough for you to pressure it to the point of breaking. However, after introducing punishes to OoS options they will frequently risk shieldpokes. Knowledge of punishes, shield health, and pokes will secure you combos/stocks. Good reactions and good reads can turn a latent threat into a set-winning KO.
PUNISHING OOS OPTIONS
Below I’ve listed common OoS options and the more feasible of the many possible punishes. Obviously your spacing/choices are going to differ according to the MU. Different characters have different priorities. These options are made stronger if your aerials hit low to the ground, minimizing time between hitlag and landing as well as strengthening the no aerial mixup. This assumes that you are grounded at the time that the OoS action starts.
* Grab (7f, low range)
crouch (3f)
space outside of it and fsmash (12f) / your choice of punish
* Roll Away (31f+, most range. This is difficult to cover without a prediction)
jump through rest
jump through w/aerial (FH bair here pressures roll (with upair followup) or no roll)
* Roll In (31f+, meh range, reactable if free to act)
crouch and react with aerial/rest
space out and react with aerial/rest
* Jump/WD OoS (5-15f, mid range)
uptilt/upsmash (7/8f, be careful because often if done after an aerial this can whiff)
aerial to stuff it (minimum of 12f)
* Attack OoS
uptilt/upsmash (7/8f if able to catch jumpsquat/startup)
space outside of it fsmash (12f) / grab (7f) / whatever you want
shield (esp vs fast options like samus upB/shine)
Approximate lowest common denominators
* crouch can punish grab/roll in/sometimes jump/aerial. Loses to some aggressive options/roll away.
* uptilt pokes and can punish jump. Loses to pretty much everything else.
* crossup upair can poke and punish jump/aerial/roll away. Loses to roll in/fast attack.
* spacing out can punish grab/aerial/upsmash/roll in. Loses to away options.
* jab (5f) can punish many options by catching startup or by making OoS timing after shieldstun ambiguous and baiting an evasion. Its low startup and endlag can allow heavy punishes but jabs lose very hard to a patient opponent and some offensive options. Jab has 11f of endlag which is low enough to allow you to reactively pressure (but rarely directly punish) a triggered defensive option. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: jab is only 2 frames slower than grab. The real advantages of jab over grab are a) half as much endlag and b) the hitlag eats up any OoS inputs that they enter during that time.
Vs most relevant chars a jab then reaction to buffered roll in with rest has an about 3f leniency with a jump on frame 16 of the roll but only with fully spaced jab, so you probably want to react with WD grab instead. WD grab is not a true combo but it will catch startup of most anything but another buffered roll. In this instance because you're probably going to only get at most a grab consider just grabbing from the start (except against like samus/hella slow rollers).
Vs buffered roll away/good WDs from jab you can’t directly punish without a read unless stage cuts them off but second jab can mess them up.
Vs second jab buffered roll in rest is never real on reaction but you can get right up in his face then he shields then you can land behind him and uptilt rest.
Vs buffered roll away/good WDs from jab you can’t directly punish unless the stage cuts them off.
Because options/strength of varies by MU this is too generalized to be a perfect picture. You should consider your tools on a per-matchup basis with an eye to simplify your engagement by covering multiple options with one motion. I'll probably do that in list form at some point in the future for myself.
It is also good to note that you don't have to choose option vs option. You can put yourself in position then react (In a great design you want to identify which distinct positions offer maximum reward to feasible options on reaction).
SHIELDPOKES
(These notes assume no shield tilt. Just remember that if someone tilts to cover their ass then their head is exposed and vice versa. Note too that these options compliment GRAB. Empty land grabs are often just as good as pokes and should be used liberally when appropriate. Just because empty land grab only takes a sentence to describe vs what I'm gonna go into below doesn't make it less important. )
I think that to play clean and deliberately there are 2 reliable shieldpokes:
* uptilt pokes feet early when facing them. #wow #godlike
* sh crossup upair pokes heads but you have to delay the input slightly so that it doesn’t come out on the shield (learned this from abu, ty based prince). Especially nice because you can start from a little further away from the shield, so it doesn't have to be telegraphed like standing next to them for uptilt may be. It can also hit them jumping out of shield or put you in position to cover a roll.
The Mississippi Unit
Knowledge of shield health is especially useful for puff because she has specific/reliable pokes that require certain healths. Shields last ~5 mississippis if you say mississippi quickly (It actually lasts 3.6 seconds but the system works better if you count “mississippi 1, mississippi 2" etc. It’s a good approximate system to learn to account for shield health).
* every aerial reduces their shield by 1 mississippi
* pound reduces it by 2 mississippis.
example application: fresh shield, you count as descending “mississippi 1, missisippi 2” then hit with upair. Shield now has 2 mississippis left. While they’re unlikely to stay still, if you can force shield again then a slight delay to account for regeneration over that time and a pound should break the shield.
I don't think that it's necessary to try to keep track of how many mississppis they're at throughout the match. That would be stupid. I'm just using this temporarily unit for 1/5th of a shield as it is appropriate for this purpose and for learning the rhythmic relationship.
Character Vulnerability
(obv easier after more time than listed)
* Fox is vulnerable below (uptilt @ 2 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 2 mississippi)
* Falco is vulnerable below (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 1 mississippi)
* Marth is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ fresh shield)
* Sheik is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 2 mississippi)
* Falcon is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 3 mississippi)
* Peach is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ fresh shield) and above (sh upair @ 3 mississippi)
* Puff's ears/hands are vulnerable @ 1 mississippi, her peripheral @ 2 mississippi
Shieldpokes on Platforms
* FH nair shieldpokes from below exceedingly easily.
* Upair can almost always shieldpoke from below but you have to FH up at a diagonal past their shield tangentially and nick their feet (really hard vs fresh shield).
* after 1 mississippi or so bair and upair start to sheildpoke from below reliably.
* delayed rising pound can clip behind a shield.
* Generally speaking I recommend aiming for the back foot (easier on a lot of characters).
* Vs. shielddroppers you can aim for the opposite side that they favor. They’ll probably be buffering one direction a lot (I do right, myself). Aim for the left. Free poke. They probably won’t even notice.
PUNISHMENT METHODOLOGY
In order to get shieldpokes your opponent must sit in shield for long enough to be poked. This means that you need to either predict when they'll shield and/or condition them to shield longer. How can we accomplish this?
1) Recognize when they shield. If someone shields in response to something that probably indicates that they're willing and likely to do so again until something changes.
2) Practice ambiguous movement. With tight control you can make it very unclear exactly when you intend to hit a shield. This makes engagements take longer thereby draining a shield and potentially forcing out a reactable and panicked out of shield option.
3) Recognize and punish their out of shield habits. Until you demonstrate that an out of shield option is unsafe, the opponent will (consciously or not) continue to abuse it. Keep in mind that many of these will be in response to specific situations. They are likely to react differently to a falling bair on shield vs an upair or even a rising bair. Identifying an out of shield habit is a huge, two part advantage. First, you now have the opportunity to predict and punish it. A grab, aerial, jump, roll, etc all have specific punishes that you can then wield liberally for free advantages/stocks. Your first task is to profit off of this habit until they reel it back. Don't get ahead of yourself and give up these free advantages waiting for them to give you an uptilt before you're confident (as opposed to hoping) that they will. Once you've conditioned them to fear the OoS punish sitting in shield seems less dangerous than moving. NOW you have the freedom to engineer a poke on in extreme cases a break.
CLOSING
Ultimately I think that most jigglypuff players have poorly developed, very predictable, and almost solely habit-based on shield games. These interactions rarely look like the super-interesting and potentially pivotal key moments that they actually are with puff on the field.
Recall that the complex, bullet time mixup game with baits, feints, and timing mixups that we think of when we think of spacie shield pressure comes directly from mango's jigglypuff. The same concepts still apply. They're just sitting there waiting for puff players to recognize, internalize, and abuse.
FIGHTING GAMMMMMES
Puff's bair disjoint and aerial mobility give her a strong zoning game that can easily lock opponents down. But despite the frequency with which characters shield puff players rarely see meaningful rewards. This is not because of a character limitation but because of a poorly developed/understood mixup game.
In my opinion Jigglypuff's mixups on shields are some of the most interesting in melee. Crouch, grab, uptilt, and upair mixups all frequently and reliably combo to rest. However, many OoS options (including grabs, shine, stomp, etc) can get her killed or immediately reset to neutral. In this way the stakes are relatively high and it behooves us to examine these interactions more closely.
It is rare for an opponent to sit in shield for long enough for you to pressure it to the point of breaking. However, after introducing punishes to OoS options they will frequently risk shieldpokes. Knowledge of punishes, shield health, and pokes will secure you combos/stocks. Good reactions and good reads can turn a latent threat into a set-winning KO.
PUNISHING OOS OPTIONS
Below I’ve listed common OoS options and the more feasible of the many possible punishes. Obviously your spacing/choices are going to differ according to the MU. Different characters have different priorities. These options are made stronger if your aerials hit low to the ground, minimizing time between hitlag and landing as well as strengthening the no aerial mixup. This assumes that you are grounded at the time that the OoS action starts.
* Grab (7f, low range)
crouch (3f)
space outside of it and fsmash (12f) / your choice of punish
* Roll Away (31f+, most range. This is difficult to cover without a prediction)
jump through rest
jump through w/aerial (FH bair here pressures roll (with upair followup) or no roll)
* Roll In (31f+, meh range, reactable if free to act)
crouch and react with aerial/rest
space out and react with aerial/rest
* Jump/WD OoS (5-15f, mid range)
uptilt/upsmash (7/8f, be careful because often if done after an aerial this can whiff)
aerial to stuff it (minimum of 12f)
* Attack OoS
uptilt/upsmash (7/8f if able to catch jumpsquat/startup)
space outside of it fsmash (12f) / grab (7f) / whatever you want
shield (esp vs fast options like samus upB/shine)
Approximate lowest common denominators
* crouch can punish grab/roll in/sometimes jump/aerial. Loses to some aggressive options/roll away.
* uptilt pokes and can punish jump. Loses to pretty much everything else.
* crossup upair can poke and punish jump/aerial/roll away. Loses to roll in/fast attack.
* spacing out can punish grab/aerial/upsmash/roll in. Loses to away options.
* jab (5f) can punish many options by catching startup or by making OoS timing after shieldstun ambiguous and baiting an evasion. Its low startup and endlag can allow heavy punishes but jabs lose very hard to a patient opponent and some offensive options. Jab has 11f of endlag which is low enough to allow you to reactively pressure (but rarely directly punish) a triggered defensive option. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: jab is only 2 frames slower than grab. The real advantages of jab over grab are a) half as much endlag and b) the hitlag eats up any OoS inputs that they enter during that time.
Vs most relevant chars a jab then reaction to buffered roll in with rest has an about 3f leniency with a jump on frame 16 of the roll but only with fully spaced jab, so you probably want to react with WD grab instead. WD grab is not a true combo but it will catch startup of most anything but another buffered roll. In this instance because you're probably going to only get at most a grab consider just grabbing from the start (except against like samus/hella slow rollers).
Vs buffered roll away/good WDs from jab you can’t directly punish without a read unless stage cuts them off but second jab can mess them up.
Vs second jab buffered roll in rest is never real on reaction but you can get right up in his face then he shields then you can land behind him and uptilt rest.
Vs buffered roll away/good WDs from jab you can’t directly punish unless the stage cuts them off.
Because options/strength of varies by MU this is too generalized to be a perfect picture. You should consider your tools on a per-matchup basis with an eye to simplify your engagement by covering multiple options with one motion. I'll probably do that in list form at some point in the future for myself.
It is also good to note that you don't have to choose option vs option. You can put yourself in position then react (In a great design you want to identify which distinct positions offer maximum reward to feasible options on reaction).
SHIELDPOKES
(These notes assume no shield tilt. Just remember that if someone tilts to cover their ass then their head is exposed and vice versa. Note too that these options compliment GRAB. Empty land grabs are often just as good as pokes and should be used liberally when appropriate. Just because empty land grab only takes a sentence to describe vs what I'm gonna go into below doesn't make it less important. )
I think that to play clean and deliberately there are 2 reliable shieldpokes:
* uptilt pokes feet early when facing them. #wow #godlike
* sh crossup upair pokes heads but you have to delay the input slightly so that it doesn’t come out on the shield (learned this from abu, ty based prince). Especially nice because you can start from a little further away from the shield, so it doesn't have to be telegraphed like standing next to them for uptilt may be. It can also hit them jumping out of shield or put you in position to cover a roll.
The Mississippi Unit
Knowledge of shield health is especially useful for puff because she has specific/reliable pokes that require certain healths. Shields last ~5 mississippis if you say mississippi quickly (It actually lasts 3.6 seconds but the system works better if you count “mississippi 1, mississippi 2" etc. It’s a good approximate system to learn to account for shield health).
* every aerial reduces their shield by 1 mississippi
* pound reduces it by 2 mississippis.
example application: fresh shield, you count as descending “mississippi 1, missisippi 2” then hit with upair. Shield now has 2 mississippis left. While they’re unlikely to stay still, if you can force shield again then a slight delay to account for regeneration over that time and a pound should break the shield.
I don't think that it's necessary to try to keep track of how many mississppis they're at throughout the match. That would be stupid. I'm just using this temporarily unit for 1/5th of a shield as it is appropriate for this purpose and for learning the rhythmic relationship.
Character Vulnerability
(obv easier after more time than listed)
* Fox is vulnerable below (uptilt @ 2 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 2 mississippi)
* Falco is vulnerable below (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 1 mississippi)
* Marth is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ fresh shield)
* Sheik is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 2 mississippi)
* Falcon is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ 1 mississippi) and above (sh upair @ 3 mississippi)
* Peach is vulnerable below(rear) (uptilt @ fresh shield) and above (sh upair @ 3 mississippi)
* Puff's ears/hands are vulnerable @ 1 mississippi, her peripheral @ 2 mississippi
Shieldpokes on Platforms
* FH nair shieldpokes from below exceedingly easily.
* Upair can almost always shieldpoke from below but you have to FH up at a diagonal past their shield tangentially and nick their feet (really hard vs fresh shield).
* after 1 mississippi or so bair and upair start to sheildpoke from below reliably.
* delayed rising pound can clip behind a shield.
* Generally speaking I recommend aiming for the back foot (easier on a lot of characters).
* Vs. shielddroppers you can aim for the opposite side that they favor. They’ll probably be buffering one direction a lot (I do right, myself). Aim for the left. Free poke. They probably won’t even notice.
PUNISHMENT METHODOLOGY
In order to get shieldpokes your opponent must sit in shield for long enough to be poked. This means that you need to either predict when they'll shield and/or condition them to shield longer. How can we accomplish this?
1) Recognize when they shield. If someone shields in response to something that probably indicates that they're willing and likely to do so again until something changes.
2) Practice ambiguous movement. With tight control you can make it very unclear exactly when you intend to hit a shield. This makes engagements take longer thereby draining a shield and potentially forcing out a reactable and panicked out of shield option.
3) Recognize and punish their out of shield habits. Until you demonstrate that an out of shield option is unsafe, the opponent will (consciously or not) continue to abuse it. Keep in mind that many of these will be in response to specific situations. They are likely to react differently to a falling bair on shield vs an upair or even a rising bair. Identifying an out of shield habit is a huge, two part advantage. First, you now have the opportunity to predict and punish it. A grab, aerial, jump, roll, etc all have specific punishes that you can then wield liberally for free advantages/stocks. Your first task is to profit off of this habit until they reel it back. Don't get ahead of yourself and give up these free advantages waiting for them to give you an uptilt before you're confident (as opposed to hoping) that they will. Once you've conditioned them to fear the OoS punish sitting in shield seems less dangerous than moving. NOW you have the freedom to engineer a poke on in extreme cases a break.
CLOSING
Ultimately I think that most jigglypuff players have poorly developed, very predictable, and almost solely habit-based on shield games. These interactions rarely look like the super-interesting and potentially pivotal key moments that they actually are with puff on the field.
Recall that the complex, bullet time mixup game with baits, feints, and timing mixups that we think of when we think of spacie shield pressure comes directly from mango's jigglypuff. The same concepts still apply. They're just sitting there waiting for puff players to recognize, internalize, and abuse.
FIGHTING GAMMMMMES
Monday, October 5, 2015
format notes
I recognized that prior notetaking format wasn't very good for my mental
workflow so I've reorganized some of it. MUs page is gone and instead the smash bible is gonna link
to character matchup posts that I'm going to fill out and edit over
time. They're super rudimentary (partly because my current understanding
is often super rudimentary lol but also) largely because I haven't transcribed
a lot of stuff yet. Basically please understand that those posts will
always be incomplete/changing in one way or another.
Haven't had my 20xx so I haven't been able to test specific things the past couple weeks but I have some notes on vs shield and on ground that are pretty stellar to verify and flesh out once I get it back (^_^ )
Haven't had my 20xx so I haven't been able to test specific things the past couple weeks but I have some notes on vs shield and on ground that are pretty stellar to verify and flesh out once I get it back (^_^ )
LowTiers
vs Low Tiers (Young Link, Link, Zelda, Game & Watch, Roy, Mewtwo, Pichu, Ness, Bowser, Kirby)
VS Young Link
aerial through his spam, outplay him with footsies if he does or doesn't want to camp.
VS Link
this MU is a playground, you can combo him like crazzzy
don't rush in neutral or you can end up taking a ton of damage for no reason
VS ZELDA
you can CC/crouch under everything but falling kick. Makes this MU way way way easy.
bair destroys her
abuse center stage
keeping above her is really good but stay above where her legs can be with her jumps 'cause rising kick is strong.
she can only kick so just avoid that one move and you're gold
VS Game & Watch
Free AF
just drill rest him 4 times in a minute. Done.
VS ROY
dunno, just stay away from small stages (reverse upB will kill you at 0 on yoshis and PS) and kill him fast, don't fight his CC it's kinda dumb
Mewtwo
dunno probs just bair
Pichu
pichu is actually not that bad vs puff
he can camp you really hard with flyby nairs to rack up damage really fast
upsmash will kill puff starting at like 60 or so
but it's hard to kill puff otherwise until about 130
so as puff you just avoid getting upsmashed (usually out of dthrow or fair, looks like) and look to beat his horrible horrible hitboxes
Ness
dunno probs just bair
Bowser
dunno but seems scary lol
upB kills at like 70
Kirby
dunno
VS Young Link
aerial through his spam, outplay him with footsies if he does or doesn't want to camp.
VS Link
this MU is a playground, you can combo him like crazzzy
don't rush in neutral or you can end up taking a ton of damage for no reason
VS ZELDA
you can CC/crouch under everything but falling kick. Makes this MU way way way easy.
bair destroys her
abuse center stage
keeping above her is really good but stay above where her legs can be with her jumps 'cause rising kick is strong.
she can only kick so just avoid that one move and you're gold
VS Game & Watch
Free AF
just drill rest him 4 times in a minute. Done.
VS ROY
dunno, just stay away from small stages (reverse upB will kill you at 0 on yoshis and PS) and kill him fast, don't fight his CC it's kinda dumb
Mewtwo
dunno probs just bair
Pichu
pichu is actually not that bad vs puff
he can camp you really hard with flyby nairs to rack up damage really fast
upsmash will kill puff starting at like 60 or so
but it's hard to kill puff otherwise until about 130
so as puff you just avoid getting upsmashed (usually out of dthrow or fair, looks like) and look to beat his horrible horrible hitboxes
Ness
dunno probs just bair
Bowser
dunno but seems scary lol
upB kills at like 70
Kirby
dunno
MidTiers
vs MidTiers (Pikachu. Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, Doctor Mario, Mario, Yoshi)
VS PIKACHU
who knows
UPB has a lot of landing lag, free rest
The way his up B works is that after each of the 2 jumps his hurtboxes stretch out forever and are super easy to hit with any hitbox in the vicinity. It's so strange that it looks like a deliberate balancing measure by the devs. But if he sweetspots then he skips that section of the animation and snaps to ledge so you can't challenge it at all. SFAT aims to grab ledge as the 2nd jump starts but that's going to be very situational for puff.
Upsmash on Shield
9fhitlag, 10fshieldstun(unintuitive, a lot), -22 on shield. CANNOT SH rest but WD rest has about an 8f window provided good WD to make up for shield pushback.
VS GANONDORF
in my exp if you focus solely on never getting hit the MU solves itself.
you can crouch under most of his moves if you ever have to get that close
VS DONKEY KONG
HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS MU
like wow
his bair is stupid esp from platform
upB OoS can kill you and pretty early!
Just rest him 'cause the sooner he dies the sooner the set is over and you don't have to play against DK anymore.
He's better at brawl, you're better at melee.
no DJ DK edgeguard:
just get to ledge, (he sweetspots around dsmash)
if early inv bair, if late roll.
if he goes over you attack his 7f of landing lag with AC dair.
if you can’t get to ledge in time then try to space a bair at his head. If you trade then mash grab dthrow one aerial grab ledge.
uptilt rest on no/slight DI is real until ~70% before hit. FH DJ after 40%.
DK grabs you: Hold down and away, (for dthrow) when he switches to cargo roll to full away.
cargo upthrow: Full DI in front and mash jump
He can get an FH DJ upair from 0-give or take 40% if his execution is tight but that’s it.
grounded upB has 24f of vulnerable endlag lmao
VS DOCTOR MARIO
traditionally considered a soft counter to puff because fair kills easy and pill spam is difficult to weave through. Just nair and be patient.
Seems like staying grounded until he gives you a reason to jump is best.
I just pick falco and platform camp because I think doc mains are dumb lol but I don't think that puff v doc is bad or hard at all.
VS MARIO
just outplay him it's an easier vs doc
VS YOSHI
so based on hbox vs amsa main really good positions for puff: idk because of 3f nair and dj armor puff doesn’t get much at a time unless yoshi gets upthrown therefor most of her punishes come from hanging at a specific range and then smacking an overextended yoshi on reaction. main really good positions for yoshi: jumping with armor at low % with puff in range on ledge throwing eggs if puff doesn’t allow him on stage or wants to mess with eggs directly above puff with ability to nair/upair on her if puff doesn’t shield/move directly below puff with an upsmash if puff comes down without frame adv on a platform ready to shielddrop upair if puff doesn’t come in from directly from the side
With a grab puff should always upthrow then look for more upairs for damage Looks like a super fun MU to practice because it heavily rewards what is fundamentally good for puff (very tight spacing at the very edge of yoshi’s reactive range and systematically shutting down his close range mixups via smart option coverage to maximize your risk/reward, plus at any given time if you notice a pattern or tell it = a rest.) From the yoshi side it looks like optimizing punish game and setup selection after predicting an aerial would make a huge difference, otherwise you are mostly just gonna hope that either the puff player sucks or you can hella out-guess them every game.
when yoshi is off stage he can only DJ or airdodge
armor on DJ lasts exactly as long as the animation, so from f1 after pressing Y to falling (70f, past the apex and until he is done with the sound effect)
therefor if you cancel the DJ then there’s no armor and they’re relying on spacing
so if your hitbox is better than you win which is not hard if you’re spacing
initially, when your move has enough KB to knock him out of armor he goes straight to empty falling
after more % he goes into tumble
relevant moves for breaking armor (I'm rounding decimals up)
move, knocks into normal fall, knocks into tumble
bair/clean fair, 85, 170 (probably later because of staling)
upair, 64,150
pound 60, 165
rest, 0, 14
uptilt, 57, 147
fsmash, 42, 95
dsmash, 108, 236 (not good)
dash attack, 80, 126
VS PIKACHU
who knows
UPB has a lot of landing lag, free rest
The way his up B works is that after each of the 2 jumps his hurtboxes stretch out forever and are super easy to hit with any hitbox in the vicinity. It's so strange that it looks like a deliberate balancing measure by the devs. But if he sweetspots then he skips that section of the animation and snaps to ledge so you can't challenge it at all. SFAT aims to grab ledge as the 2nd jump starts but that's going to be very situational for puff.
Upsmash on Shield
9fhitlag, 10fshieldstun(unintuitive, a lot), -22 on shield. CANNOT SH rest but WD rest has about an 8f window provided good WD to make up for shield pushback.
VS GANONDORF
in my exp if you focus solely on never getting hit the MU solves itself.
you can crouch under most of his moves if you ever have to get that close
VS DONKEY KONG
HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS MU
like wow
his bair is stupid esp from platform
upB OoS can kill you and pretty early!
Just rest him 'cause the sooner he dies the sooner the set is over and you don't have to play against DK anymore.
He's better at brawl, you're better at melee.
no DJ DK edgeguard:
just get to ledge, (he sweetspots around dsmash)
if early inv bair, if late roll.
if he goes over you attack his 7f of landing lag with AC dair.
if you can’t get to ledge in time then try to space a bair at his head. If you trade then mash grab dthrow one aerial grab ledge.
uptilt rest on no/slight DI is real until ~70% before hit. FH DJ after 40%.
DK grabs you: Hold down and away, (for dthrow) when he switches to cargo roll to full away.
cargo upthrow: Full DI in front and mash jump
He can get an FH DJ upair from 0-give or take 40% if his execution is tight but that’s it.
grounded upB has 24f of vulnerable endlag lmao
VS DOCTOR MARIO
traditionally considered a soft counter to puff because fair kills easy and pill spam is difficult to weave through. Just nair and be patient.
Seems like staying grounded until he gives you a reason to jump is best.
I just pick falco and platform camp because I think doc mains are dumb lol but I don't think that puff v doc is bad or hard at all.
VS MARIO
just outplay him it's an easier vs doc
VS YOSHI
so based on hbox vs amsa main really good positions for puff: idk because of 3f nair and dj armor puff doesn’t get much at a time unless yoshi gets upthrown therefor most of her punishes come from hanging at a specific range and then smacking an overextended yoshi on reaction. main really good positions for yoshi: jumping with armor at low % with puff in range on ledge throwing eggs if puff doesn’t allow him on stage or wants to mess with eggs directly above puff with ability to nair/upair on her if puff doesn’t shield/move directly below puff with an upsmash if puff comes down without frame adv on a platform ready to shielddrop upair if puff doesn’t come in from directly from the side
With a grab puff should always upthrow then look for more upairs for damage Looks like a super fun MU to practice because it heavily rewards what is fundamentally good for puff (very tight spacing at the very edge of yoshi’s reactive range and systematically shutting down his close range mixups via smart option coverage to maximize your risk/reward, plus at any given time if you notice a pattern or tell it = a rest.) From the yoshi side it looks like optimizing punish game and setup selection after predicting an aerial would make a huge difference, otherwise you are mostly just gonna hope that either the puff player sucks or you can hella out-guess them every game.
when yoshi is off stage he can only DJ or airdodge
armor on DJ lasts exactly as long as the animation, so from f1 after pressing Y to falling (70f, past the apex and until he is done with the sound effect)
therefor if you cancel the DJ then there’s no armor and they’re relying on spacing
so if your hitbox is better than you win which is not hard if you’re spacing
initially, when your move has enough KB to knock him out of armor he goes straight to empty falling
after more % he goes into tumble
relevant moves for breaking armor (I'm rounding decimals up)
move, knocks into normal fall, knocks into tumble
bair/clean fair, 85, 170 (probably later because of staling)
upair, 64,150
pound 60, 165
rest, 0, 14
uptilt, 57, 147
fsmash, 42, 95
dsmash, 108, 236 (not good)
dash attack, 80, 126
Luigi
VS LUIGI
* side platform reset when unsure.
* if level with him then sit at the edge of his WD range and jump whenever he yells YAH!
* SH aeirals are unsafe on block. You get upsmashed.
* you don’t have much of an incentive to approach when he hasn’t committed to lag.
* edgeguard aggressively with fair, aiming to catch startup of sideB but end up under a potential misfire.
* crouch leads to rest vs every approaching option but dsmash over 35%.
DON'T BAIR HIS SHIELD HE WILL WD OUT AND KILL YOU WITH UPSMASH
AC nairs keep him from WDing at you for free
edgeguard aggressively. Assume all sideBs will misfire. His upB doesn't have any hitstun so you can attack after immediately after getting hit (probs fair/dsmash).
upair him aggressively when he's above you.
You're probably going to have to be more patient than he is, luigi wants you to misspace or overextend often enough to take chip damage and drop stocks to his nair/dair spam.
He likes to get kills with WD forward up/dsmash as you fall/land.
you can crouch rest luigi's upsmash. 30f+ reaction it's free. Rest OoS is impossible because of shield pushback.
you can CC rest luigi's dsmash until 33%. He's about -30 vs CC. Rest OoS is impossible because of shield pushback.
You can also crouch under luigi's grab but he doesn't lean forward enough to rest it on reaction.
* Luigi’s descending aerials on shield:
Nair: 8f hitlag, 8f shieldstun, 7f landing lag, so it’s +1 on shield
Dair: 8,9,7,+2
Fair: 7,7,12,-5
Bair: 7,6,7,-1
These numbers assume he hits as low as possible
it takes 6f for him to fall from top to bottom of puff’s shield w/ ff
* side platform reset when unsure.
* if level with him then sit at the edge of his WD range and jump whenever he yells YAH!
* SH aeirals are unsafe on block. You get upsmashed.
* you don’t have much of an incentive to approach when he hasn’t committed to lag.
* edgeguard aggressively with fair, aiming to catch startup of sideB but end up under a potential misfire.
* crouch leads to rest vs every approaching option but dsmash over 35%.
DON'T BAIR HIS SHIELD HE WILL WD OUT AND KILL YOU WITH UPSMASH
AC nairs keep him from WDing at you for free
edgeguard aggressively. Assume all sideBs will misfire. His upB doesn't have any hitstun so you can attack after immediately after getting hit (probs fair/dsmash).
upair him aggressively when he's above you.
You're probably going to have to be more patient than he is, luigi wants you to misspace or overextend often enough to take chip damage and drop stocks to his nair/dair spam.
He likes to get kills with WD forward up/dsmash as you fall/land.
you can crouch rest luigi's upsmash. 30f+ reaction it's free. Rest OoS is impossible because of shield pushback.
you can CC rest luigi's dsmash until 33%. He's about -30 vs CC. Rest OoS is impossible because of shield pushback.
You can also crouch under luigi's grab but he doesn't lean forward enough to rest it on reaction.
* Luigi’s descending aerials on shield:
Nair: 8f hitlag, 8f shieldstun, 7f landing lag, so it’s +1 on shield
Dair: 8,9,7,+2
Fair: 7,7,12,-5
Bair: 7,6,7,-1
These numbers assume he hits as low as possible
it takes 6f for him to fall from top to bottom of puff’s shield w/ ff
Samus
VS SAMUS
* samus's goal is to get her charge shot, puff's is to force samus off stage into an edgeguard
* this incentivizes puff to approach and for samus to hit her back out again.
* puff can deep aerial and then shield, which beats samus's CC options and just leaves her WD out of shield and trying to guess around with tilts/jabs, a game that puff wins over time with better conversions.
* to prevent this situation, samus does a preemptive tilt (up or f based on angle) to beat puff's descent
* to counter this puff can land outside of samus's range and whiff punish
* to counter this samus will either delay and move forward to pressure the land or preemptively rising aerial
* to counter this puff can hang further back and come up outside of or underneath samus with an aerial
* to counter this samus charges her chargeshot
This MU is sicwitit, super fun
* samus's goal is to get her charge shot, puff's is to force samus off stage into an edgeguard
* this incentivizes puff to approach and for samus to hit her back out again.
* puff can deep aerial and then shield, which beats samus's CC options and just leaves her WD out of shield and trying to guess around with tilts/jabs, a game that puff wins over time with better conversions.
* to prevent this situation, samus does a preemptive tilt (up or f based on angle) to beat puff's descent
* to counter this puff can land outside of samus's range and whiff punish
* to counter this samus will either delay and move forward to pressure the land or preemptively rising aerial
* to counter this puff can hang further back and come up outside of or underneath samus with an aerial
* to counter this samus charges her chargeshot
This MU is sicwitit, super fun
you can CC rest most grounded options but watch out for dsmash
crouch next to shield is strong, can only be punished by grab/upB if very close and reactable WD.
if she upBs you can jump after her and rest
her shield looks crazy uptiltable
her crouch is really strong but you autowin if you just keep good spacing and only worry about good spacing vs crouch.
nair goes through missiles, FH goes over them
rest dthrow nair
samus uptilt
total, 39
hit, 14-17
iasa 35
effective endlag, 17
7 hitlag
7 shieldstun
-10 on block (hitting top of shield)
the difficulty of the punish is that she reels back during endlag.
samus ftilt
hit, 6-8
iasa 30
effective endlag, 22
6
6
-17
her crouch is really strong but you autowin if you just keep good spacing and only worry about good spacing vs crouch.
nair goes through missiles, FH goes over them
rest dthrow nair
samus uptilt
total, 39
hit, 14-17
iasa 35
effective endlag, 17
7 hitlag
7 shieldstun
-10 on block (hitting top of shield)
the difficulty of the punish is that she reels back during endlag.
samus ftilt
hit, 6-8
iasa 30
effective endlag, 22
6
6
-17
if you AC bair samus's shield then you can crouch rest the WD jab OoS
However jab is too quick to rest on reaction, you have to read that it's going to be a jab.
you can't reliably rest jab1 OoS but you can reliably SH rest after jab2.
if samus does an ftilt on your shield you have to punish with AC bair if it is spaced on your shield (tight window)
if it is deep on your shield you can WD rest it.
Ice Climbers
VS ICs
dunno I hate this character
camp the top platform like a bitch
pound the shit out of their shield, kill nana, time popo out lol
if you grab popo then nana goes into lv 1 cpu mode imediately, meaning that you can upthrow pop and WoP or rest her for free.
However, if you grab nana then pop is free to up/dsmash you. If unsure, fthrow will hit them both.
pound the shit out of their shield, kill nana, time popo out lol
if you grab popo then nana goes into lv 1 cpu mode imediately, meaning that you can upthrow pop and WoP or rest her for free.
However, if you grab nana then pop is free to up/dsmash you. If unsure, fthrow will hit them both.
Jigglypuff
VS JIGGLYPUFF
* crouch under rising aerials.
* FH bair is very safe from mid range. Must always swing second.
* from close range it is best to be at an angle and to swing second or to be horizontal and swing first.
* staying empty for a moment to change your rhythm beats a rhythm.
* jab on shield is hard to punish but the best punish is to do nothing.
* nair OoS is very hard to punish
FH bair = FH bair
slight delay SH bair > FH bair
Shield > SH aerial/close FH aerial
do nothing > shield
Key positions
center stage (wins war of attrition)
FH just underneath the side platforms when they are descending to it
* crouch under rising aerials.
* FH bair is very safe from mid range. Must always swing second.
* from close range it is best to be at an angle and to swing second or to be horizontal and swing first.
* staying empty for a moment to change your rhythm beats a rhythm.
* jab on shield is hard to punish but the best punish is to do nothing.
* nair OoS is very hard to punish
FH bair = FH bair
slight delay SH bair > FH bair
Shield > SH aerial/close FH aerial
do nothing > shield
Key positions
center stage (wins war of attrition)
FH just underneath the side platforms when they are descending to it
Peach
VS PEACH
* stay just in range to punish turnip pull, don’t move first, just punish her for twitching
* don’t challenge when she’s higher than you
* early kills with empty land uptilt
* fairing when possible unstales bair which leads to earlier kills
Overt Goals: shark at bair range,
especially at head height the entire match as far as is possible. Punish
all turnip pulls. Abuse her low mobility and continue to build damage
until she dies through extended edgeguards. You are required to rely on
bair to win this MU.
Uptilt to rest at low % when possible. Mix in empty hop grabs when shield happy (dthrow>techchase rest).
Peach wins when she is allowed to build damage faster than you do by turnip abuse and trading with your bad spacing.
Avoid bad situations completely. Don’t gamble or press.
notes
- space space space
- be patient. Committing to unsafe approaches instead of waiting a few seconds is how you lose.
- you can do some funky rests because she can’t punish a miss very well.
- fullhop bair pullback bair on shield to catch nair etc OoS. Never cross over the shield.
- low % watch out for nair out of hitstun, cover with back up bair until mid range
- spaced bairs = bair on DI out rest on DI in because what can she do?
- all FHs to stay mobile.
- FH in response to unpunished turnip pull, stay out of the arc or prepare to nair.
- nair through turnips but fast enough to hit her at end of throw animation.
- remember 4%. If you don’t like a turnip situation just take a step back and wait for your chance to reset to bair spacing.
- you can’t win vs her shield if she has a turnip just focus on baiting the throw.
- all of hbox’s nairs are reactionary to peach being in endlag of something. Very abusable.
- nair rest from ~10-35%
- don't run into fair. Stay away from 45 degrees below her.
- buffer roll when she hits your shield. Every time until they demonstrate they can punish it. You can crouch rest dash attack if that's what they choose.
- her dair beats your upair without perfect spacing. Wait under it.
- nair is bad in this MU without confirmation (what a surprise)
- always DI out. Never get overzealous and continue to hold toward her.
- Upsmash OoS on lag
- crouch rest is real on grab and dash attack
- rest dash attack OoS every time. Free.
- drill to upsmash kills
- drill rest is real after 45% but tricky, grab is easier
- upthrow on grab after dthrow techchase % and follow direction to (safe) uairs for damage
- you can straight up rest dsmash spam instead of bair because of endlag.
- dsmash is restable OoS if you don't get poked first.
- dsmash is restable OoS if you don't get poked first.
- trade upsmash with her getting off ledge seems ok but might actually be bad
- crossup uptilt or grab when full shield or low % prevents threat but watch to bair (or rest) her roll away
summary
low %
look out for nair
fish for uptilts to rest
execute obvious punishes
high %
keep her in the air, hit her without taking any more damage yourself until she dies.
to test
- FH fall straight down on her with nair (why doesn’t she nair?)
- bair to rest at ~30%
- rest FC aerials OoS (might lose to jab but beat dsmash?)
- 60-80% nair fsmash/upsmash is true?
I don’t know about stages. Need more friendlies, for now use the CP rule and watch the order that they strike.
DL favors your survivability because taking a few bad hits is less dramatic but you can’t lose patience.
I don't like Yoshis at all.
I do like FD but seems like preference.
I don't like Yoshis at all.
I do like FD but seems like preference.
Struggling with:
Not struggling with this one I just drop easy punishes.
Captain Falcon
VS FALCON
* The lead is very very important vs florida falcons
* from shffl range falcon can
dash back
shield
preemptive attack
dash under
FH bair beats dash in and jump
if a bair whiffs you have to fade back all the way
this repeats until falcon either shields or aerials preemptively
preemptive aerials lose to you crouching or moving out of the way
shielding leads to a mixup between delayed bair to crouch/WD or an umpty land uptilt/grab
if they indirect punish by taking space then it’s not a big deal because you can take it back in increments.
You can CC rest all grounded options.
uair strings hurt him pretty bad
rest attempts at dthrow knee
DI dthrows slightly off from straight down
AC nair to crouch should only lose to reactable dair oos
if you get hit with his legs it sucks and you could die.
drill is really really really good
if you get hit with his legs it sucks and you could die.
drill is really really really good
CC grab his nair
to test: WD through just beats everything if he knees your shield?
to test: WD through just beats everything if he knees your shield?
Sheik
VS SHEIK
* when she charges needles go under or over right away
* vs grounded sheik spaced bair beats/whiff punishes everything and forces her backwards
* nair rest/dair vs her CC keeps her honest
* to beat bair sheik has to start challenging it with vertical spaced aerials, her own bair, or shield camping
* sheik on a platform is an invitation to wait patiently and minimize damage before you get underneath her then upair to oblivion
* we can beat out the jumping by pressuring the space above sheik’s head well with FH fair/nair
* forcing her to wait defensively underneath our aerials opens up a descending upair>crouch, which at worst makes her run away, provided that you confirm no CC or preemptive tilt.
* recover high, just above her FH range.
* always always DI everything away
goals: punish jumps
force sheik to jump/above you and then wreck her with upairs
* sheik is only ever at an adv if you stay in her needle angle or sit inside of her shffl range but if you are outside of it then FH aerials punish her jumps super easy (FH fair is better to hit it preemptive, bair is better as whiff punish)
* if you do this a lot and sheik jumps very high to avoid you then it’s an invitation to sneak under her needle angle (then she gets wrecked), otherwise you stay over it.
* so it’s very very spacing heavy, stage position is not very important but having her next to a side platform is helpful because you can use it to get under her jumps easier.
* when far away SH when close FH
* at low % AC nair is moderate risk high reward
* punishing things OoS is overly difficult so roll away from that position
* grounded sheik is a bit harder to deal with than jumping sheik, luckily sheiks all think that platform camping is good in this MU. It is not.
* recover and stall in between stocks at about her FH height. If you go lower than that without her making it safe then it's too easy for her to funnel you into a bad spot.
vs grounded sheik you want to swing second. Always. If you act first it's going to be grabbing her, not an aerial. It's hard to approach her from the air because she can crouch and dtilt or dsmash or stuff your aerial with an ftilt or jump over your descent and fair and all of that sucks. So it's a little street fightery in that you want her to be jumping and you can encourage her to jump by punishing the other things but if that's the case you have to be very ready for the jump when it comes.
In cases where you come down directly over her head either fade away or dair. DON'T nair or upair. Even hungrybox loses that situation because he uses upair and gets hit by a move that would have been stopped by dair's low hitbox. Make sense?
I think that puff wins the MU, sheik just has super sucky tools as long as the puff is playing melee. Sheik wins if you aren't patient and if you try to cheese her instead of outspace her. All of the crouching next to sheik strats are bad. There are obv spots where you have to after an exchange (which is ok because she won't think, which is good) but it's a horrible plan A or even plan B because the risk reward is stacked in her favor by a lot. You take 2 dsmashes and that's most of your stock.
It's hard to have great spacing for the whole set but if you do and you don't commit to things that aren't listed here then you win by a lot.
She doesn't want to do much but needle, bair, dsmash so be aware of that.
* when she charges needles go under or over right away
* vs grounded sheik spaced bair beats/whiff punishes everything and forces her backwards
* nair rest/dair vs her CC keeps her honest
* to beat bair sheik has to start challenging it with vertical spaced aerials, her own bair, or shield camping
* sheik on a platform is an invitation to wait patiently and minimize damage before you get underneath her then upair to oblivion
* we can beat out the jumping by pressuring the space above sheik’s head well with FH fair/nair
* forcing her to wait defensively underneath our aerials opens up a descending upair>crouch, which at worst makes her run away, provided that you confirm no CC or preemptive tilt.
* recover high, just above her FH range.
* always always DI everything away
goals: punish jumps
force sheik to jump/above you and then wreck her with upairs
* sheik is only ever at an adv if you stay in her needle angle or sit inside of her shffl range but if you are outside of it then FH aerials punish her jumps super easy (FH fair is better to hit it preemptive, bair is better as whiff punish)
* if you do this a lot and sheik jumps very high to avoid you then it’s an invitation to sneak under her needle angle (then she gets wrecked), otherwise you stay over it.
* so it’s very very spacing heavy, stage position is not very important but having her next to a side platform is helpful because you can use it to get under her jumps easier.
* when far away SH when close FH
* at low % AC nair is moderate risk high reward
* punishing things OoS is overly difficult so roll away from that position
* grounded sheik is a bit harder to deal with than jumping sheik, luckily sheiks all think that platform camping is good in this MU. It is not.
* recover and stall in between stocks at about her FH height. If you go lower than that without her making it safe then it's too easy for her to funnel you into a bad spot.
vs grounded sheik you want to swing second. Always. If you act first it's going to be grabbing her, not an aerial. It's hard to approach her from the air because she can crouch and dtilt or dsmash or stuff your aerial with an ftilt or jump over your descent and fair and all of that sucks. So it's a little street fightery in that you want her to be jumping and you can encourage her to jump by punishing the other things but if that's the case you have to be very ready for the jump when it comes.
In cases where you come down directly over her head either fade away or dair. DON'T nair or upair. Even hungrybox loses that situation because he uses upair and gets hit by a move that would have been stopped by dair's low hitbox. Make sense?
I think that puff wins the MU, sheik just has super sucky tools as long as the puff is playing melee. Sheik wins if you aren't patient and if you try to cheese her instead of outspace her. All of the crouching next to sheik strats are bad. There are obv spots where you have to after an exchange (which is ok because she won't think, which is good) but it's a horrible plan A or even plan B because the risk reward is stacked in her favor by a lot. You take 2 dsmashes and that's most of your stock.
It's hard to have great spacing for the whole set but if you do and you don't commit to things that aren't listed here then you win by a lot.
She doesn't want to do much but needle, bair, dsmash so be aware of that.
getting dthrown spells death.
grab ledge in time to get inv for the poof then let go dj rest on reaction to not ledge
if no inv then normal getup the poof then run up rest/dsmash if went up
crouching sheik’s dsmash
0-54% (55%+ first hit of dsmash breaks CC)
2nd hit rarely hits after CC pushback
press jump as the 2nd hit whiffs (too early and you’ll jump into it)
SH rest ~10 frame window
alternatively SH dair or shield and shieldgrab her assuming you don’t get pushed too far.
if no inv then normal getup the poof then run up rest/dsmash if went up
crouching sheik’s dsmash
0-54% (55%+ first hit of dsmash breaks CC)
2nd hit rarely hits after CC pushback
press jump as the 2nd hit whiffs (too early and you’ll jump into it)
SH rest ~10 frame window
alternatively SH dair or shield and shieldgrab her assuming you don’t get pushed too far.
AC nair crossup
vs CC
0%, -3
12, -1
24, 0
30+, -6
no CC, hits top of head
0%, -3 (with ASDI -3)
12, 0 (with ASDI -11)
18, +1 (with ASDI -11)
21, +3 (with ASDI -11)
24, +5 (with ASDI -11)
30, +5 (with ASDI -11)
39, +6
57, +9
no CC connects low
0%, +7 (with ASDI +7)
12, +7 (with ASDI 0)
24, +16 (with ASDI 0)
soft fair to rest is a real combo from 60+ BUT it's got a slim window unless you intentionally hit late during the fair (difference between a 3f window and ~12f)
Marth
VS MARTH
* side platform reset when you don’t have stage control.
* marth’s dash dance is overly difficult to beat, so you don’t want to try
* from the side, prioritize stage control over combos. It is ok to forfeit direct whiff punishes if they let you pressure him into losing stage. This is especially good because it makes empty land grabs very good starting game 2.
* once marth is cornered, simply use FH bairs at inside edge of side platform to pressure him. Whiff punishes are easy because he can’t dash back and if he shields then you just WD back to the inside edge of the side platform and start again.
* converts to a super easy edgeguard. Very clean and pretty MU design.
don’t land anywhere near him when he’s free to grab or you die. YOU CANNOT RELIABLY CROUCH UNDER DASH GRAB.
Jumping marth is super easy because he can't grab you so you can shield > punish for free.
Grounded marth is tricky because his DD is the perfect length to out maneuver your approaching aerial and grab your land. For this reason you don't want to commit first without a good reason.
Grounded marth is tricky because his DD is the perfect length to out maneuver your approaching aerial and grab your land. For this reason you don't want to commit first without a good reason.
- rest/fair shielded aerials but be careful shielding grounded marth ‘cause of grab mixup.
- his shield is poked by dair/uptilt super
super easy once his feet are exposed. His head by sh upair.
- upair uptilt rest stops working after 0, then you have to do one or the other to rest.
- he jumps out of uptilt rest after ~20%. Earlier is just a matter of no dead frames between uptilt and jump.
- he jumps out of uptilt rest after ~20%. Earlier is just a matter of no dead frames between uptilt and jump.
- dthrow to bait a double jump bair or techchase rest. Easy.
- rest his standing grabs.
- crouch is only enabled when he’s
standing or shielding. If shielding WD in place to bait. Jump after him
or shield on reaction to his movement.
- preemptive roll to rest marth’s fsmash arm
- hbox wd oos rest uptilt endlag
- you can afford to space a littttle closer to him by crouching because his sword swings in an arc
- shielding his sword is a free punish
- shield drop rests are easy
- Rest OoS in general is easy either straight or after WD (he's tall so maybe WD doesn't even help)
- shield drop rests are easy
- Rest OoS in general is easy either straight or after WD (he's tall so maybe WD doesn't even help)
- try to deny him his DD
- AC nair to crouch should only lose to reactable dair oos on block
- dash dance outside of his range, pretty forgiving.
-when you uptilt marth and he CCs you can easily react, it’s part of the tree. Jab reset.
-when you uptilt marth and he CCs you can easily react, it’s part of the tree. Jab reset.
throws: avoiding the stupid tipper
down and with trajectory (away from marth) is generally best
marth edgeguard
a little weird but it just sort of works
1. aim to grab ledge as he falls below ledge height. If he sideBs you’ll have inv
2. immediately let go with fair. If he jumps this will stuff it.
3. dj regrab will give you inv if he upBs on stage, let go dj rest
4. if he waits to sweetspot(/sideB then sweetspot) react to the sound (to distinguish) and roll
might have to do an extra refresh if he’s far enough out.
if he’s at a good angle/situation you can fall off with inv fair and bump him out for the kill
you also have edgeguards and marth killer
marth killer kills high and sweetspot because high = free rest
at high % sing, don't restmarth dtilt:
total 49
hit 7-9
iasa 20 (will probably dtilt again or dash back)
effective endlag 10
6 hitlag
6 shieldstun
-4 on block
second dtilt on 27
an aerial OoS will hit the startup of anything that he does but dash back unless he’s fully spaced at which point it’s obvious you won’t get a direct punish.
you can’t hit him with an aerial from any spacing if he dashbacks out of dtilt
so if you SH after him then he’s going to dash outside of your SHFFL range and probably grab your land
so you should FH so that you can confirm that it hits or if he dashes back
I think that FH fair is better than FH dair because
a) you raise your legs over a second dtilt
b) you don’t have to land if he dashes back
to test: can you avoid death at 30% off a grab by guarunteeing not-tipper for either throw with no DI? I don’t think he can grab AC bair. Unless he starts a dash grab from initial dash. Not sure. Are crossups on marth’s shield ever safe?
Falco
VS FALCO
Overt Goals:
You lose by getting pinned.
Stay at FH height or so. Only fair at punishable things.
I like trying to powershield lasers and buffering a full hop/WD with C stick.
Don’t WD OoS unless sure (never before shine), just wait and nair out etc.
you do better if you can take the fight to the platforms? More like you can respond to his ranges better.
buffer roll away if he crosses up with dair
rest OoS dash attack etc
rest OoS missed l-cancel dair?
bair to rest at 80%?
fair to rest at 130%?
shield pressure:
tilt up your shield and try to shieldDI every hit out. A single correct shield DI and he's done.
hit high > wavedash out
hit mid-low > shield DI > grab
missed L cancel > grab
shield DI shines out > grab
lasers:
sh laser can jussst hit fh but you can easily dj higher on reaction
crouch and fh just after the laser passes over you or powershield FH
AC nair vs falco
standing
0, -3
12, -3
crouch
0, -4
12, -3
so it's pretty bad
Fox
VS FOX
* stay at or outside of a BF platform length away
* platform reset from bad position
* vs cornered fox land outside of inside edge of platform then prepare to counter his vertical or his horizontal escape
* if he ever has to shield then the base mixup is descending low bair or empty land grab. If he has an answer then counter the answer (if he jumps then you upair under or jup away, if he crouches then you can land grab faster by airdodging down or outside of his range)
* he can’t react to WD FH nair, this keeps him from staying on the ground so close to you
* from further away bairs are strong
* in order to beat both he has to start aerialing in, which invites a CC grab
big setups:
CC grab
positioning to grab his land
anything he has to tech
positioning to grab his land
anything he has to tech
If you try to play this fair then you lose so you have to make it unfair.
Get a kill every time you can because your opportunities will be slim.
in neutral if he runs past a point that’s a fair to the face. Until then assume he can nair.
keep your head in the game.
Don’t let him play dash dance to jiggs is useless. Deny him by being aware of his options from DD.
If he FHs you can FH with him.
at 0 you have to SH uair regrab upthrow rest or he won't die.
If under 6% before the grab under a platform waveland up there and regrab as he will not have to tech upair.
AC nair after his dash back is safe? maybe only if it’s a clear run away and not dd in place. Makes me nervous.
you want to WD out so as to be able to
pivot and grab his misspaced nair but only after you confirm where he
lands (test to see if that's beneficial over a real dash away pivot grab
Neutral with Fox
by FHing at mid range you deny him a nair but
FH too close and he gets a free 15% bair.
too far and he lasers or gets to make things really ambiguous and shitty.
so you want to stay at mid range (where
you can bair a dash in). If you accidentally bair during the dash back
then your DJ coincides with his dash in and you’re in a bad spot.
jumps should momentarily precede his dash in?
you want to be either up inside him, at bair his dash in, or outside of shffl nair. In betweens you lose?
different whether you are facing him or not, different tools/accessible goals
edgeguard flowchart:
*can he DJ sweetspot?
*watch for DJ back
*confirm sideB noise
*confirm upB fire
*cover options
THEORETICAL EDGEGUARD FLOWCHART (needs tested)
Most of the time:
1) The biggest mixup/decision is his
“double jump to sweetspot ledge” vs “double jump back (and side B)”. If
you choose to cover one you can no longer cover the other. I’m 90% sure
it isn’t reactable. If you predict the sweetspot then you have to do the
Abu fair. If he dj back sideBs instead then you lose stage.
2) If he djs back then there’s another
mixup between on stage and to ledge. HOWEVER if you empty jump backwards
toward him with the timing then you can cover both. You want to be
falling parallel with him so that if he sideBs on
stage you get to rest him (even if he does it extra high and tries to
get the platform, doesn’t matter) and if he falls far enough that he has
to sweetspot ledge ggs puff fastfalls there first. You just don’t want to
be falling so far below him that you have to grab ledge while he can
still sideB to stage). This is all very reactable provided that you
jumped at the right time.
3) Special note that if he isn’t close
enough to ledge to dj sweetspot it then he can’t do 1) at all. In this
case as well as places where he’s falling from high enough that you can
cut him off if he tries to save his jump until then then the fox is
prone to dj much earlier (also subconsciously foxes hate being under the
stage). That’s when hbox just jumps back with them, reads djs and gets
nasty bair chains. We all do that but that’s why/when it’s actually
good.
4) If you correctly position to cover the
sideB then his upB isn’t very good (at all) unless he’s waaaay out of
the way. If you empty jumped and he didn’t sideB at all then you
shouuuld be able to just jump out and swat him out of it since that’s
all that he can do anymore. The trick is that he can start his upB at
any point above and you have to react quickly enough to think “oh, free
fox” and jump out there asap.
Obv you can’t always get to him esp at
higher %s but you will always be able to cover his most profitable angle
if not just react. Fox that goes high is great because it’s super easy
to react to and shark under him.
% range for upthrow rest (after throw)
weird to test because it’s pretty ambiguous when to use double jump but
72% tough yes
80% barely yes
89% barely no
so I’d do upairs after 70
upthrow followups vs full DI forward fox
at 0% before the throw
sh upair, regrab (if he DIs the upair in either direction).
Reminder that upair will not knock force a tech until 6% before the throw. He will land with no lag after the upair.
at 15%
SH upair, grab is not guaranteed with good DI off the upair.
so fsmash (hbox)
WD forward techchase. You end with just enough time to jab after the WD if missed tech and pretty much exactly as much time as necessary to techchase with WD back rest/grab tech in, WD forward grab tech out, grab tech in place.
Abu techchase. uptilt missed tech/tech in place, grab tech in, bair tech away
at 30%
sh upair, enough KB to get a fair, but too much hitstun to jump out of so you can WD regrab or techchase depending on DI.
at 40%
Too much KB from the throw to guarantee sh upair, he can DJ out before it connects.
punishes on full DI behind no jump out of upthrow SH pound then probs techchase (meh)
SH bair (meh)
I think I like just empty SH over there then either techchase or get under his DJ with SHFFL upair
full DI behind w/ jump out of upthrow, double jump bair is the only reliable followup
dthrow on fox combos to fsmash vs in(and slight in) DI from 0-130% hella easy reaction vs DI out at the ledge it's a 50/50. He can't jump until he's about half his double jump below the ledge even at 0. But puff can't get down to him fast enough (even if she runs off the stage instead of SH) to cover both DJ back and DJ to ledge.
CC puff vs strong fox nair (low as possible)
0%, even
5-64%, +6
ASDI
0-30%, +3
weak nair (fast falled)
0%, +4
5-96, +5
ASDI
0, +1
7-55%, +6
fox at 0
puff low as possible bair CC -3
bair no CC +2
AC nair CC -6
AC nair no CC is +0
fox at 12%
puff low as possible bair vs CC -9
bair no CC +4
bair ASDI down -6
fox under 30 (no CC effect) vs low AC nair is close to even, who is + depends on how long puff falls
after 30 low nair is about -8
to reduce laser damage from fox:
• when well outside of nonreactable range WD/crouch/buffer lightshield to space/wait, no superfluous jumps
• WD off of side plat instead of SH
• area level with and just below is safe from lasers and SH aerials, requires him to FH aerial (or aerial from a plat)
• recover vs mid/full stage fox ~ level with top plat requiring him to DJ for any free damage
These points are only relevant beyond the FHFF∆, at or inside that range lasers are bad risk reward for fox.
vs spacies, combos to dsmash that will get a kill/easy edgeguard nearish the ledge
(no easy amsah techi)
uptilt->dsmash 30-50
upsmash->dsmash 30-45
upair->dsmash 24-50
3% for pummel, 8% in lasers no DI, 4% lasers DI behind, 6% DI front
fox upthrow upair kills (before grab, assuming one pummel, no/behind throw DI, no SDI, yes survival DI)
YS 36, 41
PS 39, 45
FD 42, 47
BF 45, 50
FoD 46, 50
DL 59, 64
No DI Uthrow causing a tech on the top plat %s (assuming fresh)
Falco
BF: 60%
DL: 43%
FoD/YS: 0%
Falcon
BF: 40%
DL: 23%
FoD/YS: 0%
Fox BF: 76%
DL: 62%
FoD: 17% (PAL), 18% (NTSC)
YS: 13% (PAL), 14% (NTSC)
Falco
BF: 60%
DL: 43%
FoD/YS: 0%
Falcon
BF: 40%
DL: 23%
FoD/YS: 0%
Fox BF: 76%
DL: 62%
FoD: 17% (PAL), 18% (NTSC)
YS: 13% (PAL), 14% (NTSC)
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