Tekk vs Amsah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l3l4wld4tg
Game 1 BF
8:00 non-neutral/sheik start but they’re polite and tekk just takes center
7:57 FH nair keeps sheik in the corner, backward jump to watch for sheik’s reaction
7:56 why is he already there with a fair? How would he know that?
reads the needles after too
7:50 interesting choice to wait and nair the land instead of fair, late so gets naired
7:47 poor spacing
next section he spaces overtly out of range and horizontal
7:39 gets 2 bairs that way w/ stage
7:37 shield is too healthy for that uptilt, naired anyway. I would have low upaired WD back.
7:36 funny dash attack
7:34 sheik can’t grab so shield then choose OoS based on aerial
good reaction to the dair (also restable OoS)
looks like tekk looks for techchase rest opportunity
could have WDed to ledge
spaces outside of aerial range, bad reaction to airdodge
sheik gets center out of it
7:26 good to recognize tempo and wait outside of sheik’s FH,
tekk’s aerial placement so far makes it look like he tries to read jumps raw a lot
7:24 bad jump
7:23 flubbed ledgecancel
7:19 quick movement through plat
7:16 tries to stagespike sheik but misspaced
takes center, sheik rolls in and buffers spotdodge, grab
7:14 shield means expecting dsmash
WD away seeing crossup
jumps right into the 45, obv not good
7:09 bad nair
7:05 not good spacing
7:01 good bair but amsah rolls, that’s ok there’s stage
amsah jumps up, he’s demonstrated a want to do that
tekk with him but doesn’t expect DJ so gets needled
I think fair instead of bair would have solved that
6:57 why no bair?
6:55 reads the movement but poor reward
2 more empty jumps that say “I recognize that attempt is not going to work, I want to wait a moment”
but not good positioning with them.
6:52 amsah jumps into nair (looking for another vulnerable jump?) gets comboed
6:45 really good spacing around the aerial, slow punish, should have grabbed landing
6:41 where soft spaces out on the ground then jumps toward with fair, tekk jumps out then fades in with bair (worse results here)
6:39 reads the movement
6:35 hbox would have intercepted the fall
I think getup was too late
6:29 really good vertical spacing
shitty edgeguard
6:24 doesn’t poke, spaced too close for whiff punish
6:22 bad spacing
6:17 FH nair on recognition of sheik landing so far away
6:12 goes high to stall for time
6:08 good WD, bad instead of ok crossup because sheik shielded in time
6:03 FH nair from the corner works again
so much preemptive stuffing amsah’s jumps
6:00 amsah baits a jump so he can do that
5:55 sheik jumps into fair, then upair, sdi up makes followup hard
no jump sheik, another upair, rests fair startup
really really important stock to take
and off of jump reads
5:48 stalls outside of range
5:45 stays just above FH height again, gets nair pressure
5:43 kind of interesting, example where tekk leaves FH empty
most puffs would FH bair
he leaves it then dj bair to maintian height/orientation
that seems to be his focus. To stay at a height and to stay relatively open.
5:42 sheik challenges tekk to interrupt needle charge without getting hit, tekk flubs approach
staying horizontal, anticipating sheik’s movement, nair is fast but doesn’t combo
5:36 oh yeah the god-granted pound lol
late to rest because that was a surprise
5:32 goes to vertical nair pressure but slow
5:28 reads that movement again
upair forces no jump, bair
5:26 that turnaround nair is very tekk-specific
5:23 too slow
too slow to punish dsmash but threaten is enough for grab
5:19 no WD to ledge again
5:17 reads an aerial
5:15 does nair because he recognizes he’s late
5:13 grab
5:07 amsah wasn’t sure which way tekk would go from the edgecancel
WD away then fsmash the trigger movement
5:03 chooses to shield and stay close
4:57 good spacing but slow
4:55 vertical nair
ooh good shield
4:45 good empty land
slow reaction to airdodge, predictable at low%
4:39 vertical nair
4:32 booooooooo
just watches his spacing for a while
4:16 reads the aerial
gets the combo fair but hesitates
4:12 don’t like that spotdodge unless he thinks amsah will grab but amsah hasn’t ever treid
4:05 poor spacing
4:02 same situation as the rest combo this time sheik goes down after hit 1
tekk keeps landing next to sheik and spotdodging I don’t know what he’s looking for but it’s not happening
some bad spacing
3:49 tricky puff stuff
3:43 bad spacing
3:31 good fair
3:25 lets sheik back so that he can vertical nair crossup
3:00 wow godlike DI but bad positioning to get there lol
2:51 again lol
2:44 both choking
Stocks
fair at high%
upair combo to rest off of jump reads
delay then fsmash the OoS option
fair at high%
Stocks Lost
bad nair, bad spacing on vertical recovery
sheik falls on top of puff from top plat with strong bair
bad spacing from corner, gets faired
Game 2 YS
8:00 non-neutral, amsah with good option coverage
gets counter hit and stage, leads to additional aerial
7:56 maybe fh upair would have caught the land
7:55 slightly misspaced upair
7:53 threatens bair then amazing empty land uptilt but misses rest, analog jump
7:46 amsah lets him back to center looking to punish land but tekk spaces out
horizontal spacing
7:43 this is an interesting nair, it covers a lot of options
sheik gets a clutch dj so no combo to uptilt
7:42 poor DI
makes way back by threatening vertical spacing
7:37 slow to shield or drop
7:35 spaced too far out for upair
7:31 good situation reaction for grab
7:28 goes for stage spike, ehhh not good
7:23 reads the dsmash, close enough for grab
goes for same fair, sheik gets back again
7:15 rolls away from mixup
dair grab after dsmash, backthrow, no real attempt at edgeguard, prioritizes stage so gets punish on ledgejump
7:02 vertical evasion but stays too close, gets faired
6:55 sheik slow to evade
reads the shitttttt ouf of that jump
kind of awkward followup, jumps for vertical spacing instead of a maybe uptilt
6:52 flubs his spacing
6:49 reaction was too slow to avoid bair but good DI so gets nair punish, ideally dair grab?
takes center
6:47 really really good going under needles
anticipates techchase, rest. Sickkk.
6:38 slow to get out range so takes some hits
6:31 pound because he thinks that sheik will whiff? Seems good but amsah didn’t bit and just jumped again.
6:30 WD away from scuffle
6:26 poor crossup
takes vertical spacing again, nair
then takes center, then bairs the jump
6:23 anticipates bair but amsah spaces it
6:17 oh cool, pounds the landing on the wide whiff
reads the roll sooooo hard but whiffs (; ____ ; )
6:08 gets sheik to jump up then chases, WoP, note hitting close to body
6:00 keeps great horizontal spacing, slow to fair off of edgecancel
fairs the runoff option then nairs feet, should upair (maybe because he doesn’t claw)
5:54 rawww read on jump but not enough hitstun to combo
ummmm ok that was maybe the worst rest punish I’ve ever seen
5:49 they’re both a bit nervous to commit to grounded mixup
5:45 slow reaction to jump
vertical spacing
5:39 he’s done that dash attack before, not quite tech %
5:35 looks like he tried to bait a roll right
5:32 oh gosh that was risky
stays out of sheik range on return until bair at
5:22 takes stage, reacts to ledgejump
easy edgeguard
Stocks
bair on ledgejump, edgeguard
sneaks under needles, upairs land, techchase rest
forces sheik up with inv then wop
spaces outside of jump, wop, edgeguard
Stocks Lost
faired staying too close vs inv
missed rest, zelda kick
trades upair with sheik upsmash
Game 3 PS
8:00 takes center but slow to react to needles
jumps with jump
trying to fill air above sheik
7:52 whiff punish after fadeback, not followed through enough for combo
7:50 gives himself lots of room
7:48 dairs jump or land
7:46 avoiding ground game altogether
7:44 premature fall
7:41 not enough fadeback to fix nair
7:38 spacing far enough away it’s like marth
7:37 choice of whiff punish
7:35 wants him to roll so badly, fading back until whiff punish on run off fair is fine
easy dash attack (jab reset) on missed tech
both misjudge height, does not grab ledge
7:25 up and over but not up enough
sits outside of range waiting for overextension
7:19 that’ll work, dashes out to avoid counterhit, dtilt can hit under descending aerial so he’s waiting it out, spaces for crossup nair because amsah demonstrates no ftilt to stuff it
really good spacing after
7:12 too late
shielddrop upair, nice
no double jump, should be upairs to rest
7:02 oh I didn’t know that sweetspotted, ok
6:55 tekk waiting for aerial lets sheik run under
6:47 waiting over sheik’s jumps
6:44 gets the opportunity but is slow to whiff punish (not that it’s easy, sheik’s leg is long)
6:43 goes up with sheik, over the needles is prime, bairs shield
6:42 had already committed his action state to bair so couldn’t punish roll uptilt
6:39 too low % to follow up
6:35 sheik is a little early to antiair so nair connects (would have caught jump too), uptilt, rest
6:30 shield instead of crouch. Tekk seems to shield out of stun at close range either habitually or because he’s more afraid of dsmash than grab.
oh geeze if you could DI like that out of dthrow in ntcs I would shield too.
6:26 good spacing
6:24 tekk turnaround nair to stuff jump space after confirming timing
crossup roll
so that’s tekk’s return from the corner habit
6:23 upair was good if sheik did anything else
6:16 test for jump, hazards descent, amsah doesn’t react
good poke, goes to punish jump, just shy
6:14 WD out to avoid grounded followup, jump is slow so can pressure
crouch after low upair but doesn’t react for rest
6:10 amsah uses grounded puff as opportunity to crossup
ooh, good of tekk not to bite and get baired
slightly misspaced and gets dsmashed, not too bad though
6:05 recovering high enough to react to jumps
5:59 no jump, whiffs uptilt, not expecting fade away
5:58 tekk turnaround nair to get over the aerial, cool
not good to land on plat
recovers high, gets nair opportunity, pressures for stage
5:49 hard guess, is wrong
5:43 corners the shiek
5:41 spaces outside of fair but not in time to avoid needles
fills space in front of shiek with bair so that she has to stay in corner
5:37 a couple close judgements
jumps in as sheik WDes in, can’t react to aerial
forces jump with upair, doesn’t ff with sheik so gets baired instead of a nasty punish
5:34 fills the jump arc with tekk nair
is slow to jump away because of missed uptilt
5:31 amsah thinks another nair, tekk delays
5:25 tekk hasn’t lost from this position
5:21 recognizes is late, gets grab
5:14 amsah reacts to empty land probably because of spacing
5:10 wants to get under bair but slightly misspaced
5:05 catches sheik’s fall
5:04 easy jump from ledge bair
5:00 empty jump to threaten followup then fair to hit shield or evasion
4:57 misses bair on another ledgejump
4:50 sitting in bad position, just wants to end it
4:34 ok there’s something lol
Stocks
whiff punish, dash attack missed tech, flubbed recovery
shielddrop upair upair upair rest
vertical nair, uptilt rest
upsmash OoS, high %
Stocks Lost
upsmash rest punish, high%
misses randy fsmash read, faired at high%
This game looks way way better, he's using the space on PS so well that it looks like it favors puff.
- - -
It seems like Tekk’s primary strat is to stay spaced either directly above or horizontal to sheik’s jumps. His grounded game is not very present or successful.
He waits outside of sheik’s jumps and looks to whiff punish. If he uses enough to earn it, he will drift over sheik and then do a vertical nair to stuff her jump or crossup.
When out of position he jumps up. He’s not afraid to empty jump rather than commit too early or predictably.
He’s not afraid to look for hard reads, esp if it will land him an upair.
Amsah plays into this with lots of jumps and reluctance to walk forward, so it’s hard to say how much of this is anti-sheik and how much is anti-amsah.
Wednesday, December 30, 2015
Soft vs Druggedfox Analysis
Soft vs Druggedfox (puff sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy50DJ9MobQ
Game 1 FoD
8:00 nonneutral start puts puff in center, bairs to cover runoff fair
nairs in looking for nair(crouch) rest
sheik bounces before shield can shrink
7:55 sheik challenges vertical spacing, running under plat is good. Makes it harder on her and gives enough time for that bair.
7:54 upair prevents counterattack. Mixup. Good intro poke for information. Sheik jumps.
Vertical sheik is scary. Nair. Puff rolls.
7:52 nair would have caught startup of a grounded option maybe? Gets faired.
SDI out of the dsmash
7:50 more nair trades, soft is fishing.
resets to neutral
7:49 sheik shallow fakeout
7:47 punishes jump after needle landing, cool.
still too low for bair to combo but 2 hits is good.
7:45 really bad crossup, now reversed positions
7:42 crossup over shield gets naired
7:41 soft watching the spacing carefully
7:40 ooh reads the tilt? Probably actually a reaction to his own fall through the plat feeling slow.
does an extra DD so no punish.
7:38 gets caught with dash attack, sheik whiffs a grab, bad spacing so aerial but surprise so bad nair.
Sheik jumps OoS for vertical space. Soft fills it with fsmash.
7:32 second fsmash was even more cheesy, just grab
7:29 good DI off the throw that looked hard to catch.
7:26 soft punishes same descent pattern again
rest edgeguard
FoD plat gets the rest punish
7:14 sheik gets puff to jump then needles around the fall for damage and stage, needed to be patient and just shark for single hits, esp at this %.
7:11 FH nair, platform messes it up, FH for more mobility
7:09 good situation for empty land uptilt but doesn’t work. Was possible but hard to space.
pretty gross pound
now out of CC %
7:02 spaces outside of sheik’s aerials and kicks with her jump
the shield pressure is weird. Soft pauses so I think he thought drugged would look to avoid uptilt. Then they both saw nothing happening and decided to retreat to be safe.
Then soft jumps to corner drugged with FH nair again.
Unfortunately the nair isn’t ffed in time so it whiffs and instead of a probable nair rest sheik gets out.
6:59 tekk says to stay parallel but in this situation staying grounded and spaced like soft does seems better.
shields in reaction to jump, has to be needles or bair
spotdodges ftilt/grab
6:58 try to bait each other into committing to grab and soft ends up whiffing because drugged dtilts expecting a crouch lol
6:51 all of this is slightly misspaced
6:49 reverse uptilt won’t poke there, needed to turn uptilt
6:42 fakeout landing angle with nair gets a bit of space back
6:40 normally this fair is a jump read but it comes out after the jump
6:37 dj bair is to avoid possible tilt? Dunno, it is a nervous tempo step back.
fall through crouch, sees no grab, shields
gets grab, no platform on other side for dthrow so backthrow
spaces to punish aggression from ledge but doesn’t take the punish
empty land was from too high up so telegraphed.
in bad position again
6:30 pound is high risk low reward
high risk options from the corner are actually pretty predictable because people are more likely to go for broke from a bad position.
6:26 takes center
forces double jump then punishes fall, gets the sick inner hitbox on strong fair so combo
6:24 3rd hit was slightly too late for strong but he calls out the double jump like a boss
and reads the on stage recovery, from here edgeguard is easy
6:15 ideally sing fsmash
6:08 FH nair again vs sheik moving at low %
combos to uptilt
forces shield, land, uptilt catches roll startup, rest
5:58 cool nair from shiek covering jump
5:57 nair loses to offensive option
5:54 needles were obv gonna hit dunno what to do there maybe just use normal getup inv
5:53 dunno why sheik backs off at 0, maybe afraid of light hit
5:52 bairs into the jump, tight timing
falls onto jump w/ nair, doesn’t combo, forced to shield but spotdodges probable grounded followup
drugged pivot jabs. probs not flub because 2 hits but not good choice here.
Buffered crouch earns rest when drugged grabs after.
Stocks
grabs descent from plat, backthrow edgehog rest
forces double jump, combo with fair off stage then edgeguard
nair uptilt force shield uptilt roll startup rest v low %
crouch rests grab after CCing jab
Stocks Lost
rest punish
whiffs pound in from ledge
Clutch spacing when it counts. Esp situational spacing, moving small distances based on shiek’s momentary options.
Game 2 PS
8:00 AC bair rest right off the bat goodness gracious that worked out perfect.
7:55 damage after dthrow nair is for prioritizing hits over position
7:50 spaces far enough away that needles won’t hit then jumps over the potential arc as sheik falls. Very neat. I haven’t considered that before.
7:47 catches sheik overextending, both back away from scuffle, that gives soft stage, both challenge this and trade, soft’s high % pushes him back and a desperate pound to center is punished.
7:42 mashes grab after close whiff, backthrow, baits a reaction but spaces too close
drops stage with another bad pound
7:37 big overcommitment by sheik is dair grabbed
backthrow, fakeout, looks like drugged tried to option select with his angle is that even possible?
small scuffle after, ends with reading a grab and resting
7:23 fades way back to avoid bair, nice. Think drugged could safely go deep though.
7:18 another nair rest at low %, looks like drugged expected another fadeback
gets stage but djs aren’t good angle vs grounded sheik so has to back off
7:10 quick reaction by sheik from situation to get shield up
7:09 drugged pivot jabs again. I wonder why. Probably because he feels that the pivot introduces enough time for inconsistency for an evasive action so he tries to stuff it.
7:06 good spacing
and such a good WD away from sheild. Prioritizes position.
7:04 flub pushes soft back, ends up crouching a grab but another flub and no rest
6:59 spaces around aggression from ledge, bair, good patience to get second aerial
6:50 sheik can’t punish that angle. Would have to double jump and let puff get underneath her.
drugged reads the approach and charges upsmash
6:42 reads sheik’s jump and fairs under the fall
6:40 airdodge through ftilt followup? weird
drugged misspaces punish and gets baired
reactive spacing gets soft some bairs
feigns retreat then dairs getup
6:32 nice to use plat to quickly ff under falling sheik
6:28 recognizes he’s late and stalls over grounded counter
empty land grab fthrow
Misstimed fair, get’s hit out of it then jumps too close to shiek,
6:20 upair kills at top of mountain lol
Stocks
AC nair rest at 0
crouch rest after missed grab
spaces around aggression from ledge, edgeguard
upair missed tech at high%
Stocks lost
falls onto an upsmash callout
Some monsterrrr punishes, goodness. Some overextension.
Game 3 PS
8:00 same AC nair but drugged jumps out haha
soft CCs a jab shieldpoke after needles, waits and dairs the followup action, only gets damage.
7:54 they both reset but sheik wins at that distance so soft presses but is too hasty
sheik has been expressly vertical so far
sheik jumps into a falling nair, uptilt, whiffed rest
7:44 pound punish on missed needles, no punish. Could rest or at least dair grab.
tries to trade but puff is slow
7:40 super high falling dar is fsmashed
7:37 puff is spacing a bit close but it gets her a juicy double bair. Easy rest edgeguard
7:24 spacing outside of sheik’s needles but hesitates too long to get direct punish on needles of the preventative nair after
7:22 should CC grab here I think.
7:18 drugged baited the approach hard.
7:16 takes center, uptilts to catch a run through but drugged waits until after
needles bad upair then gets dash attack off of no asdi down crouch and upairs crossup attempt
7:08 pound hits ‘cause WD couldn’t take sheik back far enough
waits for roll in, reads getup, upairs but sheik CCs
another upair keeps sheik in shield, reverse uptilt will not poke, crouches grab attempt, gets upsmash, easy rest techchase
6:54 too close to run out of needle range so has to shield, spotdodges the followup then crouches, sheik is nervous and shields
6:52 upairs to hit shield or jump, second upair is too slow should have just watched sheik whiff
6:49 WD away bair looks so good vs sheik bair on sheild
6:46 crouch rest but obv going to live, optimal I guess crouch grab upair combo
6:41 ooh smart airdodge after seeing drugged wait for tech
sheik’s dair covers 3/4 getup options
6:32 takes 30% pressing way too hard
they trade hit for hit for a while. Lots of % to take just so that sheik can’t charge needles.
6:07 doesn’t hold down after AC nair?
6:05 good airdodge, phew
6:03 don’t know what sheik can do after that fadeaway bair. Not enough range. She whiffs a jab but soft isn’t ready for punish.
6:02 godlike spacing
backthrow, forces getup
5:56 wow slick option coverage, that series of aerials covered like everything there was to do. It was shield grabbable but I don’t think on reaction after the first nair.
5:42 that grab isn’t real yet
5:35 yeah hanging too close
5:30 gets stage pretty heavily
slow to fair the jump but gets falling upair after
combos to rest, nice
Stocks
WoP easy rest edgeguard
crouch upsmash rest techchase after uptilt on shiek’s shield
fair edgehog at high%
falling upairs behind sheik’s FH fall, rest
Stocks Lost
unsafe aerial approach from ledge is faired
really nasty rest punish against the tree
baired for recovering too low vs on ledge sheik
good conversions
more overextension
positioning is weird, getting milage off of odd things that I’m not sure I’m recognizing correctly. Nullifying a lot of sheik’s strengths with timely punishes and familiarity with what can happen next.
soft strats:
spam nair rest/uptilt at low % lol
spotdodge crouch after a hit on shield to avoid the jab/tilt, often converts to rest
spaces outside of fair range or if can’t punish jump directly goes over needle range
FH fair under her jump as she rises, catches sheik going up and starting to come down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy50DJ9MobQ
Game 1 FoD
8:00 nonneutral start puts puff in center, bairs to cover runoff fair
nairs in looking for nair(crouch) rest
sheik bounces before shield can shrink
7:55 sheik challenges vertical spacing, running under plat is good. Makes it harder on her and gives enough time for that bair.
7:54 upair prevents counterattack. Mixup. Good intro poke for information. Sheik jumps.
Vertical sheik is scary. Nair. Puff rolls.
7:52 nair would have caught startup of a grounded option maybe? Gets faired.
SDI out of the dsmash
7:50 more nair trades, soft is fishing.
resets to neutral
7:49 sheik shallow fakeout
7:47 punishes jump after needle landing, cool.
still too low for bair to combo but 2 hits is good.
7:45 really bad crossup, now reversed positions
7:42 crossup over shield gets naired
7:41 soft watching the spacing carefully
7:40 ooh reads the tilt? Probably actually a reaction to his own fall through the plat feeling slow.
does an extra DD so no punish.
7:38 gets caught with dash attack, sheik whiffs a grab, bad spacing so aerial but surprise so bad nair.
Sheik jumps OoS for vertical space. Soft fills it with fsmash.
7:32 second fsmash was even more cheesy, just grab
7:29 good DI off the throw that looked hard to catch.
7:26 soft punishes same descent pattern again
rest edgeguard
FoD plat gets the rest punish
7:14 sheik gets puff to jump then needles around the fall for damage and stage, needed to be patient and just shark for single hits, esp at this %.
7:11 FH nair, platform messes it up, FH for more mobility
7:09 good situation for empty land uptilt but doesn’t work. Was possible but hard to space.
pretty gross pound
now out of CC %
7:02 spaces outside of sheik’s aerials and kicks with her jump
the shield pressure is weird. Soft pauses so I think he thought drugged would look to avoid uptilt. Then they both saw nothing happening and decided to retreat to be safe.
Then soft jumps to corner drugged with FH nair again.
Unfortunately the nair isn’t ffed in time so it whiffs and instead of a probable nair rest sheik gets out.
6:59 tekk says to stay parallel but in this situation staying grounded and spaced like soft does seems better.
shields in reaction to jump, has to be needles or bair
spotdodges ftilt/grab
6:58 try to bait each other into committing to grab and soft ends up whiffing because drugged dtilts expecting a crouch lol
6:51 all of this is slightly misspaced
6:49 reverse uptilt won’t poke there, needed to turn uptilt
6:42 fakeout landing angle with nair gets a bit of space back
6:40 normally this fair is a jump read but it comes out after the jump
6:37 dj bair is to avoid possible tilt? Dunno, it is a nervous tempo step back.
fall through crouch, sees no grab, shields
gets grab, no platform on other side for dthrow so backthrow
spaces to punish aggression from ledge but doesn’t take the punish
empty land was from too high up so telegraphed.
in bad position again
6:30 pound is high risk low reward
high risk options from the corner are actually pretty predictable because people are more likely to go for broke from a bad position.
6:26 takes center
forces double jump then punishes fall, gets the sick inner hitbox on strong fair so combo
6:24 3rd hit was slightly too late for strong but he calls out the double jump like a boss
and reads the on stage recovery, from here edgeguard is easy
6:15 ideally sing fsmash
6:08 FH nair again vs sheik moving at low %
combos to uptilt
forces shield, land, uptilt catches roll startup, rest
5:58 cool nair from shiek covering jump
5:57 nair loses to offensive option
5:54 needles were obv gonna hit dunno what to do there maybe just use normal getup inv
5:53 dunno why sheik backs off at 0, maybe afraid of light hit
5:52 bairs into the jump, tight timing
falls onto jump w/ nair, doesn’t combo, forced to shield but spotdodges probable grounded followup
drugged pivot jabs. probs not flub because 2 hits but not good choice here.
Buffered crouch earns rest when drugged grabs after.
Stocks
grabs descent from plat, backthrow edgehog rest
forces double jump, combo with fair off stage then edgeguard
nair uptilt force shield uptilt roll startup rest v low %
crouch rests grab after CCing jab
Stocks Lost
rest punish
whiffs pound in from ledge
Clutch spacing when it counts. Esp situational spacing, moving small distances based on shiek’s momentary options.
Game 2 PS
8:00 AC bair rest right off the bat goodness gracious that worked out perfect.
7:55 damage after dthrow nair is for prioritizing hits over position
7:50 spaces far enough away that needles won’t hit then jumps over the potential arc as sheik falls. Very neat. I haven’t considered that before.
7:47 catches sheik overextending, both back away from scuffle, that gives soft stage, both challenge this and trade, soft’s high % pushes him back and a desperate pound to center is punished.
7:42 mashes grab after close whiff, backthrow, baits a reaction but spaces too close
drops stage with another bad pound
7:37 big overcommitment by sheik is dair grabbed
backthrow, fakeout, looks like drugged tried to option select with his angle is that even possible?
small scuffle after, ends with reading a grab and resting
7:23 fades way back to avoid bair, nice. Think drugged could safely go deep though.
7:18 another nair rest at low %, looks like drugged expected another fadeback
gets stage but djs aren’t good angle vs grounded sheik so has to back off
7:10 quick reaction by sheik from situation to get shield up
7:09 drugged pivot jabs again. I wonder why. Probably because he feels that the pivot introduces enough time for inconsistency for an evasive action so he tries to stuff it.
7:06 good spacing
and such a good WD away from sheild. Prioritizes position.
7:04 flub pushes soft back, ends up crouching a grab but another flub and no rest
6:59 spaces around aggression from ledge, bair, good patience to get second aerial
6:50 sheik can’t punish that angle. Would have to double jump and let puff get underneath her.
drugged reads the approach and charges upsmash
6:42 reads sheik’s jump and fairs under the fall
6:40 airdodge through ftilt followup? weird
drugged misspaces punish and gets baired
reactive spacing gets soft some bairs
feigns retreat then dairs getup
6:32 nice to use plat to quickly ff under falling sheik
6:28 recognizes he’s late and stalls over grounded counter
empty land grab fthrow
Misstimed fair, get’s hit out of it then jumps too close to shiek,
6:20 upair kills at top of mountain lol
Stocks
AC nair rest at 0
crouch rest after missed grab
spaces around aggression from ledge, edgeguard
upair missed tech at high%
Stocks lost
falls onto an upsmash callout
Some monsterrrr punishes, goodness. Some overextension.
Game 3 PS
8:00 same AC nair but drugged jumps out haha
soft CCs a jab shieldpoke after needles, waits and dairs the followup action, only gets damage.
7:54 they both reset but sheik wins at that distance so soft presses but is too hasty
sheik has been expressly vertical so far
sheik jumps into a falling nair, uptilt, whiffed rest
7:44 pound punish on missed needles, no punish. Could rest or at least dair grab.
tries to trade but puff is slow
7:40 super high falling dar is fsmashed
7:37 puff is spacing a bit close but it gets her a juicy double bair. Easy rest edgeguard
7:24 spacing outside of sheik’s needles but hesitates too long to get direct punish on needles of the preventative nair after
7:22 should CC grab here I think.
7:18 drugged baited the approach hard.
7:16 takes center, uptilts to catch a run through but drugged waits until after
needles bad upair then gets dash attack off of no asdi down crouch and upairs crossup attempt
7:08 pound hits ‘cause WD couldn’t take sheik back far enough
waits for roll in, reads getup, upairs but sheik CCs
another upair keeps sheik in shield, reverse uptilt will not poke, crouches grab attempt, gets upsmash, easy rest techchase
6:54 too close to run out of needle range so has to shield, spotdodges the followup then crouches, sheik is nervous and shields
6:52 upairs to hit shield or jump, second upair is too slow should have just watched sheik whiff
6:49 WD away bair looks so good vs sheik bair on sheild
6:46 crouch rest but obv going to live, optimal I guess crouch grab upair combo
6:41 ooh smart airdodge after seeing drugged wait for tech
sheik’s dair covers 3/4 getup options
6:32 takes 30% pressing way too hard
they trade hit for hit for a while. Lots of % to take just so that sheik can’t charge needles.
6:07 doesn’t hold down after AC nair?
6:05 good airdodge, phew
6:03 don’t know what sheik can do after that fadeaway bair. Not enough range. She whiffs a jab but soft isn’t ready for punish.
6:02 godlike spacing
backthrow, forces getup
5:56 wow slick option coverage, that series of aerials covered like everything there was to do. It was shield grabbable but I don’t think on reaction after the first nair.
5:42 that grab isn’t real yet
5:35 yeah hanging too close
5:30 gets stage pretty heavily
slow to fair the jump but gets falling upair after
combos to rest, nice
Stocks
WoP easy rest edgeguard
crouch upsmash rest techchase after uptilt on shiek’s shield
fair edgehog at high%
falling upairs behind sheik’s FH fall, rest
Stocks Lost
unsafe aerial approach from ledge is faired
really nasty rest punish against the tree
baired for recovering too low vs on ledge sheik
good conversions
more overextension
positioning is weird, getting milage off of odd things that I’m not sure I’m recognizing correctly. Nullifying a lot of sheik’s strengths with timely punishes and familiarity with what can happen next.
soft strats:
spam nair rest/uptilt at low % lol
spotdodge crouch after a hit on shield to avoid the jab/tilt, often converts to rest
spaces outside of fair range or if can’t punish jump directly goes over needle range
FH fair under her jump as she rises, catches sheik going up and starting to come down
Tuesday, December 22, 2015
Hbox vs PPU Analysis
Hbox vs PPU (CEO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0NhIjnthg
Game 1 BF
8:00 non-neutral start, hbox avoids the issue
looks like he reads the dtilt based on WDes and no DD
not spaced so CC dtilt
runs to plat to avoid issue
7:56 sideBs into the DD area but marth shieldstops
7:52 spaced to far to punish land
repeatedly retreats to side platform to avoid threat of DD, looking to fall through onto lag
7:49 ftilt on reaction to jump (instead of preemptive dtilt), adaption
7:43 recognizes not enough time for clean punish and WDes out but second WD prevents punish
7:42 really good spacing on ground to avoid marth’s approaching threats
pretty bad spacing in the air after
7:34 ftilt is working too well
7:31 marth is too low for followup
7:29 pounds into DD range again but ppu has caught on to falling puff pattern
7:27 perfect range to FH bair vs not stationary marth
7:21 crouches to cover tracks, ppu rolls away granting stage
7:19 I think dash attack was a reaction to marth’s shield being up too far away so marth was going to leave it somehow.
goal from here is to keep marth in corner so hbox rolls out then pressures space with jump.
marth on outside and puff on inside of plat is perfect position
he just whiffs but keeps marth there until marth moves in
7:14 lol tries to swag but messes up
7:11 fair was to bait dtilt so he could get ledge for free
7:06 good to slip into spot under falling marth for grab
should be backthrow
don’t know why attmepts to grab ledge attack
7:01 jumps away from uptilt, fairs when he sees jump
7:00 perfect spot but bair is too early
on right side after he keeps trying to bait swings just outside of range but is slow to punish
6:50 unsafe crossup is grabbed
messes up the hbox edgeguard, doesn’t recognize marth’s early upB. Would be funny if ppu did that on purpose.
6:46 easy rest but hbox takes aerial (obv better)
6:40 marth’s movement makes regrab safe so hbox keeps taking it
takes given space on stage too
6:35 dunno why marth fairs
hbox WDes out to avoid double fair, goes to bair it but it didn’t happen
6:33 reads a swing out of the WD. Safe bet because of high% and marth can’t get anything off a grab. (interesting to note that dash grab out of WD is pretty much never going to happen)
fthrow for stage but marth is so low
bair was horrible idea so gets dtilted
doesn’t respect marth’s space gets faired
6:22 falls in looking to cut stage, marth gives a grab
doesn’t get to ledge in time
bairs ledgejump but good DI
prefers to let marth have ledge rather than take hits
6:15 prioritizes taking perfect position with bair threat
6:14 run up shield vs marth on ledge but slow to grab
ppu runs through
hbox goes to plat to avoid issue of approaching marth
6:08 shield is a bad reaction
6:04 FH is strong because of representing retreat to plat
falling bair will now catch a slightly slow marth
6:02 trying to bait a roll through again
5:58 gets it
5:56 second attempt at that fair edgecancel edgeguard it looks terrible
should just let marth have ledge if he can’t get to it first
5:50 tempo required marth to shield after landing or get hit
hbox edgeguard
5:42 avoids inv vertically
gets a hit
WD out to avoid counterhit then chases, gets another. Good SH to get under and to landing.
5:39 FH bair covers hella options, falling bair was good but whiffs because of ff
ideally I think instead of FH bair you run forward a tiny amount and upair. Unsure.
5:35 note such precise spacing outside of marth’s threats but on the edge to pressure space (just as important as actual whiff punish that he’s just outside of since it will corner marth).
he feigns fading out then pounds marth’s approach. Very range dependent.
messes up CC
5:27 this pound is soooooo greedy and soooo lucky
good techchase
shitty ass edgeguard
5:16 shields another fair, gets lucky and crouch rest
5:08 avoids inv by going vertical
slightly misspaces so gets faired
nair after has too much warning and puts him at bad spacing
doesn’t like position so takes time coming down
4:59 crouch is def for grab but sideB works too, shield is bad reaction, fsmash or rest of something
4:57 FH to corner of plat is strong position
4:53 hbox has represented gading back enough that close upair is strong
4:52 shitty upair
4:48 WL is safe because of marth’s range
4:47 not fast enough to shield but tried
4:43 dair better option than bair there but messes up
WD away to safely establish corner pressure
repeat of FH bair pressure until something is gifted
Stocks
fthrow to extended edgeguard at high%
bairs landing spot, hbox edgeguard
crouch rest in the corner
dash attack whiffed fsmash, highish %
Stocks lost
falls into fair expecting dash back, high %
Game 2 YS
8:00 both whiff, hbox assumes outside of range position to start
YS is tricky because you are always pretty close to marth and die way eariler. However it is also a boon because marth’s horizontal space is always restricted.
Hbox is just staying safe and watching ppu move
7:55 gets a whiff punish off of FH next to plat
great spacing after hit on shield
7:53 FH bair lets him react to marth’s position since edge of yoshis is relatively close
7:52 too unsure so he resets to side plat then falls for center to challenge shallow dash forward
SH bair because he thinks it will combo but not yet
7:50 spaces out to keep safe and gets grab on marth trying to roll sneakily through an overextension that didn’t happen.
7:48 Tekk would FH waveland regrab/rest because tekk is a god.
7:47 smart spotdodge to avoid upair
goal is not not let marth slip past
7:43 good crouch, horrible grab
7:41 jump up and away from marth’s range then down when invited
sick grab
great timing awareness in edgeguard
7:33 avoids inv vertically
7:31 shitty nair
7:27 same shitty nair
7:25 edgecancel turns meh angle into a good one
combos to grab, upthrow for position. I think dthrow is better there, not positive though
7:22 threatens to punish no jump, marth has to swing to protect, leaves himself open for whiff punish
7:20 tries to shield poke but doesn’t fall low enough, would have been juicy
7:19 note how as falling he prioritizes stage position over possibly trading aerials
7:18 FH bair arc covers whole stage so he does that over SH
very fast reaction to WD to avoid fsmash
7:16 dair doesn’t combo to grab because he doesn’t connect with feet at all. Second time this set.
I think he shields based on how far marth dashed away.
tries to whiff punish but doesn’t recognize the nair will AC. Almost dies.
7:10 comes down too early because he’s nervous about running out of jumps.
7:08 def should have died
7:06 shitty nair but marth jumps into it
7:04 vertical recovery, slips in with dair, slow to grab, crouches the obv counter attack, looking for a grab but ppu sideBs
7:01 is nervous about that exchange so he retreats too far and messes his spacing up
6:58 vertical recovery
6:52 vertical recovery
6:50 should have slipped to ledge when marth jumped to top plat height. You’re looking for marth to overextend and give you the time/space to land somewhere.
6:44 takes center, cuts off stage as marth runs
6:42 assumes corner pressure with FH position
6:38 should let go fair but gets up, probably mistake
6:36 spaces around getup and grabs, great.
6:31 unfortunately in a bad position
tries luck with nair again, nope.
6:28 it’s ok if fair whiffs it makes marth back off a bit.
6:27 good grab but slightly too early, hbox does that sometimes.
fsmash on reaction to spotdodge
6:21 this time goes very high to encourage marth to jump, slips into good horizontal postition
6:19 hits shield low, WD out then look to whiff punish or force back
FH bair to take stage, fades back for confidence, repeat WD away
but this time marth expects the FH bair so hbox just grabs him instead. CONDITIONING
upthrow because dthrow would go offstage and deny followup
6:14 really good spacing
WD in place to stop himself from giving up stage with overextension, marth is slow, bair.
spaces back to corner position, recognizes shield and grabs again, fthrow to maintain stage.
I think backthrow would get techchase on behind plat.
6:07 overextends and gets hit with obv dair
but good spacing after around falling fair, tuns in to take stage, stops to avoid fair, pressure.
6:03 hesitates, doesn’t WD away so is faired
marth keeps ledgejumpng, pity to see that.
5:54 hbox sees that he’s a little too slow to get grab so he just does a move
then he’s a little slow to get pressure without risk of trade/getting poked so he backs off and crouches
5:51 rest
ooh crazy regrab for stage position, misses pivot tipper looks like.
hbox just stays out of range and waits for endl ag to let him back
5:47 reacts to the roll easily
5:44 second time he’s landed on plat to get inv at right time, that’s neat.
5:37 this time marth is too high to react to the nair
hbox wants to grab but thinks it will be slow so he tries to catch any OoS movement with jabs
ppu is totally defensive OoS so he can do this without fear
5:34 same sort of exchange. PPU won’t challenge it so he gets away with jabs and a free grab
5:32 that was a weird and hard edgeguard to get, had to delay the fair
5:30 just looking for a chance to get back, trying to encourage marth to go up
5:22 safe on side plat, stalls for just too long
shields because grab won’t do anything?
5:21 needed to SH to hit but FH makes marth dash away
5:19 attempted edgecancel
oh so scary shieldbreaker
5:15 hbox used to do this pound a lot more it banks on marth leaving his jump empty for too long but marths are better about protecting the right timing how
5:11 catches the feet lol
bad aerial mobility control drops edgeguard
bad spacing gets him uptilted
4:59 takes middle, catches weird roll
tries to do the same fair edgeguard instead of taking stage. Is eager to finish.
4:53 takes great side plat poition but jumps off right away, definitely nerves.
lol decides to fish for a dair upsmash and it’s given to him
Stocks
tomahawk grab backthrow hbox edgeguard
fsmash on reaction to spotdodge after whiffed grab scuffle
bairs a roll at high %
dair upsmash at high %
Stocks Lost
gets caught running out of jumps recovering above marth, high%
uptilted off bad spacing
when marth has stage advantage then hbox retreats to side platform until marth gives him a reason to leave. In order to challenge marth has to jump or walk up empty, both are easily punished or avoided.
When in the middle of the stage hbox spaces outside of marth's threat ranges but too far away to whiff punish directly. HOWEVER he will fall with an aerial in order to force marth to shield or dash back. He'll fade back in order to keep the fall safe. His goal when in the middle of the stage is NOT to whiff punish but to force marth to the corner where whiff punishing is more feasible. This methodology is esp good because it makes tomahawk grabs really strong after a game or so.
once marth is in the corner he uses a lottt of FH bairs to keep him there, aiming for peak of the jump just on the inside of the side platform.
if marth whiffs something there he can't dash back so it's more a more forgiving punish. He either gets hit or shields and you just WD away and start FH pressure over again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0NhIjnthg
Game 1 BF
8:00 non-neutral start, hbox avoids the issue
looks like he reads the dtilt based on WDes and no DD
not spaced so CC dtilt
runs to plat to avoid issue
7:56 sideBs into the DD area but marth shieldstops
7:52 spaced to far to punish land
repeatedly retreats to side platform to avoid threat of DD, looking to fall through onto lag
7:49 ftilt on reaction to jump (instead of preemptive dtilt), adaption
7:43 recognizes not enough time for clean punish and WDes out but second WD prevents punish
7:42 really good spacing on ground to avoid marth’s approaching threats
pretty bad spacing in the air after
7:34 ftilt is working too well
7:31 marth is too low for followup
7:29 pounds into DD range again but ppu has caught on to falling puff pattern
7:27 perfect range to FH bair vs not stationary marth
7:21 crouches to cover tracks, ppu rolls away granting stage
7:19 I think dash attack was a reaction to marth’s shield being up too far away so marth was going to leave it somehow.
goal from here is to keep marth in corner so hbox rolls out then pressures space with jump.
marth on outside and puff on inside of plat is perfect position
he just whiffs but keeps marth there until marth moves in
7:14 lol tries to swag but messes up
7:11 fair was to bait dtilt so he could get ledge for free
7:06 good to slip into spot under falling marth for grab
should be backthrow
don’t know why attmepts to grab ledge attack
7:01 jumps away from uptilt, fairs when he sees jump
7:00 perfect spot but bair is too early
on right side after he keeps trying to bait swings just outside of range but is slow to punish
6:50 unsafe crossup is grabbed
messes up the hbox edgeguard, doesn’t recognize marth’s early upB. Would be funny if ppu did that on purpose.
6:46 easy rest but hbox takes aerial (obv better)
6:40 marth’s movement makes regrab safe so hbox keeps taking it
takes given space on stage too
6:35 dunno why marth fairs
hbox WDes out to avoid double fair, goes to bair it but it didn’t happen
6:33 reads a swing out of the WD. Safe bet because of high% and marth can’t get anything off a grab. (interesting to note that dash grab out of WD is pretty much never going to happen)
fthrow for stage but marth is so low
bair was horrible idea so gets dtilted
doesn’t respect marth’s space gets faired
6:22 falls in looking to cut stage, marth gives a grab
doesn’t get to ledge in time
bairs ledgejump but good DI
prefers to let marth have ledge rather than take hits
6:15 prioritizes taking perfect position with bair threat
6:14 run up shield vs marth on ledge but slow to grab
ppu runs through
hbox goes to plat to avoid issue of approaching marth
6:08 shield is a bad reaction
6:04 FH is strong because of representing retreat to plat
falling bair will now catch a slightly slow marth
6:02 trying to bait a roll through again
5:58 gets it
5:56 second attempt at that fair edgecancel edgeguard it looks terrible
should just let marth have ledge if he can’t get to it first
5:50 tempo required marth to shield after landing or get hit
hbox edgeguard
5:42 avoids inv vertically
gets a hit
WD out to avoid counterhit then chases, gets another. Good SH to get under and to landing.
5:39 FH bair covers hella options, falling bair was good but whiffs because of ff
ideally I think instead of FH bair you run forward a tiny amount and upair. Unsure.
5:35 note such precise spacing outside of marth’s threats but on the edge to pressure space (just as important as actual whiff punish that he’s just outside of since it will corner marth).
he feigns fading out then pounds marth’s approach. Very range dependent.
messes up CC
5:27 this pound is soooooo greedy and soooo lucky
good techchase
shitty ass edgeguard
5:16 shields another fair, gets lucky and crouch rest
5:08 avoids inv by going vertical
slightly misspaces so gets faired
nair after has too much warning and puts him at bad spacing
doesn’t like position so takes time coming down
4:59 crouch is def for grab but sideB works too, shield is bad reaction, fsmash or rest of something
4:57 FH to corner of plat is strong position
4:53 hbox has represented gading back enough that close upair is strong
4:52 shitty upair
4:48 WL is safe because of marth’s range
4:47 not fast enough to shield but tried
4:43 dair better option than bair there but messes up
WD away to safely establish corner pressure
repeat of FH bair pressure until something is gifted
Stocks
fthrow to extended edgeguard at high%
bairs landing spot, hbox edgeguard
crouch rest in the corner
dash attack whiffed fsmash, highish %
Stocks lost
falls into fair expecting dash back, high %
Game 2 YS
8:00 both whiff, hbox assumes outside of range position to start
YS is tricky because you are always pretty close to marth and die way eariler. However it is also a boon because marth’s horizontal space is always restricted.
Hbox is just staying safe and watching ppu move
7:55 gets a whiff punish off of FH next to plat
great spacing after hit on shield
7:53 FH bair lets him react to marth’s position since edge of yoshis is relatively close
7:52 too unsure so he resets to side plat then falls for center to challenge shallow dash forward
SH bair because he thinks it will combo but not yet
7:50 spaces out to keep safe and gets grab on marth trying to roll sneakily through an overextension that didn’t happen.
7:48 Tekk would FH waveland regrab/rest because tekk is a god.
7:47 smart spotdodge to avoid upair
goal is not not let marth slip past
7:43 good crouch, horrible grab
7:41 jump up and away from marth’s range then down when invited
sick grab
great timing awareness in edgeguard
7:33 avoids inv vertically
7:31 shitty nair
7:27 same shitty nair
7:25 edgecancel turns meh angle into a good one
combos to grab, upthrow for position. I think dthrow is better there, not positive though
7:22 threatens to punish no jump, marth has to swing to protect, leaves himself open for whiff punish
7:20 tries to shield poke but doesn’t fall low enough, would have been juicy
7:19 note how as falling he prioritizes stage position over possibly trading aerials
7:18 FH bair arc covers whole stage so he does that over SH
very fast reaction to WD to avoid fsmash
7:16 dair doesn’t combo to grab because he doesn’t connect with feet at all. Second time this set.
I think he shields based on how far marth dashed away.
tries to whiff punish but doesn’t recognize the nair will AC. Almost dies.
7:10 comes down too early because he’s nervous about running out of jumps.
7:08 def should have died
7:06 shitty nair but marth jumps into it
7:04 vertical recovery, slips in with dair, slow to grab, crouches the obv counter attack, looking for a grab but ppu sideBs
7:01 is nervous about that exchange so he retreats too far and messes his spacing up
6:58 vertical recovery
6:52 vertical recovery
6:50 should have slipped to ledge when marth jumped to top plat height. You’re looking for marth to overextend and give you the time/space to land somewhere.
6:44 takes center, cuts off stage as marth runs
6:42 assumes corner pressure with FH position
6:38 should let go fair but gets up, probably mistake
6:36 spaces around getup and grabs, great.
6:31 unfortunately in a bad position
tries luck with nair again, nope.
6:28 it’s ok if fair whiffs it makes marth back off a bit.
6:27 good grab but slightly too early, hbox does that sometimes.
fsmash on reaction to spotdodge
6:21 this time goes very high to encourage marth to jump, slips into good horizontal postition
6:19 hits shield low, WD out then look to whiff punish or force back
FH bair to take stage, fades back for confidence, repeat WD away
but this time marth expects the FH bair so hbox just grabs him instead. CONDITIONING
upthrow because dthrow would go offstage and deny followup
6:14 really good spacing
WD in place to stop himself from giving up stage with overextension, marth is slow, bair.
spaces back to corner position, recognizes shield and grabs again, fthrow to maintain stage.
I think backthrow would get techchase on behind plat.
6:07 overextends and gets hit with obv dair
but good spacing after around falling fair, tuns in to take stage, stops to avoid fair, pressure.
6:03 hesitates, doesn’t WD away so is faired
marth keeps ledgejumpng, pity to see that.
5:54 hbox sees that he’s a little too slow to get grab so he just does a move
then he’s a little slow to get pressure without risk of trade/getting poked so he backs off and crouches
5:51 rest
ooh crazy regrab for stage position, misses pivot tipper looks like.
hbox just stays out of range and waits for endl ag to let him back
5:47 reacts to the roll easily
5:44 second time he’s landed on plat to get inv at right time, that’s neat.
5:37 this time marth is too high to react to the nair
hbox wants to grab but thinks it will be slow so he tries to catch any OoS movement with jabs
ppu is totally defensive OoS so he can do this without fear
5:34 same sort of exchange. PPU won’t challenge it so he gets away with jabs and a free grab
5:32 that was a weird and hard edgeguard to get, had to delay the fair
5:30 just looking for a chance to get back, trying to encourage marth to go up
5:22 safe on side plat, stalls for just too long
shields because grab won’t do anything?
5:21 needed to SH to hit but FH makes marth dash away
5:19 attempted edgecancel
oh so scary shieldbreaker
5:15 hbox used to do this pound a lot more it banks on marth leaving his jump empty for too long but marths are better about protecting the right timing how
5:11 catches the feet lol
bad aerial mobility control drops edgeguard
bad spacing gets him uptilted
4:59 takes middle, catches weird roll
tries to do the same fair edgeguard instead of taking stage. Is eager to finish.
4:53 takes great side plat poition but jumps off right away, definitely nerves.
lol decides to fish for a dair upsmash and it’s given to him
Stocks
tomahawk grab backthrow hbox edgeguard
fsmash on reaction to spotdodge after whiffed grab scuffle
bairs a roll at high %
dair upsmash at high %
Stocks Lost
gets caught running out of jumps recovering above marth, high%
uptilted off bad spacing
when marth has stage advantage then hbox retreats to side platform until marth gives him a reason to leave. In order to challenge marth has to jump or walk up empty, both are easily punished or avoided.
When in the middle of the stage hbox spaces outside of marth's threat ranges but too far away to whiff punish directly. HOWEVER he will fall with an aerial in order to force marth to shield or dash back. He'll fade back in order to keep the fall safe. His goal when in the middle of the stage is NOT to whiff punish but to force marth to the corner where whiff punishing is more feasible. This methodology is esp good because it makes tomahawk grabs really strong after a game or so.
once marth is in the corner he uses a lottt of FH bairs to keep him there, aiming for peak of the jump just on the inside of the side platform.
if marth whiffs something there he can't dash back so it's more a more forgiving punish. He either gets hit or shields and you just WD away and start FH pressure over again.
Soft vs Articanus Analysis
Soft vs Articanus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj65Pl828pY
Game 1 FD
I don’t like FD myself because of no platforms so I feel like I get infinite edgeguarded from every part of the stage.
8:00 turn around fair after 2 zoning bairs. Bair would have hit too. It was on marth running in to punish land slow, I think. No followup after CC. Dunno what you can do to marth at 0.
7:55 marth tries to come down over a puff SH. Doesn’t work that’s so telegraphed. Gets his shield up in time for the bair. That seems to be a theme in this MU. Lots of swings are difficult to punish directly without perrrrfect spacing so he gets to shield a lot. Actually at low % I would bank on that and just grab. They love to shield and aerials don’t do anything for a bit so grab dthrow techchase/upthrow aerials.
Falling upair after but marth just moves out. I think either puff should practice poking a full shield with upair or stop doing it because it’s a huge waste of time the way we use it like that right there.
Wow marth whiffs that grab by a mile. Misspaced dair. jump away from land gets grabbed which is a little odd. Means he overshot the grab. Marth prioritizes combo over tipper because of %, puff jumps out.
7:49 ff pound is surprising and more likely because marth doesn’t want to run to the edge of the stage there.
Techchase is short, pressures shield with FH AC nair. shield grab was a little late and gets rested off a read. Had to frame by frame to verify it wasn’t a poke lol.
7:43 smart rest punish but soft recognizes and gets the DI, stalls so that he doesn’t give marth free hits, goes over
7:38 starts upair too late so landing lag gets baired, good jump out of hitstun avoids grab
7:35 recognizes potential bait and backs off rather than fall with bair then immediately jumps
reads grab attempt, dair punish but uptilt doesn’t combo this low. i think it starts at about 25.
no follow up on the grab, marth is cornered but bair whiffs, lucky duck under the grab but late reactions (which is understandable because a late reaction there is a normal reaction elsewhere lol) gets grabbed. DIs out again.
7:25 marth uses his ample real estate but is a little slow so soft can jump back, crosses marth up again. bair doesn’t have enough hitstun to combo, good DI out of fairs
7:21 marth ducks under FH bair and gets upaired because he’s not ready to move so soon. Obviously going to hit the ground based on holding down, soft’s brain keeps thinking marth is higher % than he is.
7:19 was mayyyybe a rest but land grab is safer because marth is afraid
that dair is a marth player habit so you can bait it
7:16 soft tries to preemptively rest a grab that doesn’t happen. That’s a break in marth’s pattern though. Poor DI off the throw.
7:06 soft uses inv to cut off half the stage and restrict DD, marth takes to ledge which is fine.
run up shield then roll right because he wants stage. Soft is ready, nairs (bad reward) but marth holds down. Tries to dair for some reason, puff gets a bair. Missed tech. Bad reaction (you could just run up and crouch next to him) and puff gets hit with attack. Has to give stage back.
7:02 Marth dtilts but recognizes he has enough time to DD grab a FH bair from puff.
stalls high, marth gives puff center
FH bair corners marth, FH nair in response (why?)
6:54 dash attacks into marth’s DD now that it is pinched so small
let go regrab edgeguard
6:47 waits for too long on the ground, dtilted, hangs out of the way, marth falls back farther than puff can and fsmashes
6:42 dsmashed going for greedy ledgegrab, that’s an early death
6:33 not sure why the empty land spaced out. Low bair crouch is better if no intent to grab/uptilt.
6:34 puff doesn’t like spacing on descent to spaces out enough to aerial an incoming grab but marth shffls instead.
6:31 spotdodges a grab that was cool. punish whiffs. Attemps to read away movement OoS based on previous history. Accurate but marth was quick. Late upair would have connected, early upair maybe covered still option via head poke
not sure what dair was for, maybe to cover a spotdodge. Marth runs through and fsmashes. When marths run through me I roll into them because I hate that shit and will rest them to get them to stop.
6:26 marth sees high, doesn’t expect sudden descent
puff’s bair whiffs the dj (upair but that is a weird spot)
attempts to premptively rest the grab. Input is late and whiffs. That’s a lot of reads on grab in a row.
Shieldbreaker is techable.
6:14 takes center then takes a lot of stage with still inv nair. Cool.
6:12 random fsmash
bad pound
6:10 CC grab
stays around to long gets grabbed
6:04 takes center, jumps for the rest of the stage (seems like what makes a land good or bad is the timing of marth’s dash back, which is effectively random, which sucks). Doesn’t overextend but does unsafe uptilt that gets grabbed
6:00 goes straight to center, jumps in, marth pins himself but CC dsmashes, goes for a kill with another but is really slow. That’s several “random” smashes in a row, he wants to close the match out.
punishes with bair (would upair have gotten hit from the bottom? probs)
super super baits the roll, marth tilts shield up to avoid poke
5:52 pretty questionable dash attack
CC the side B, grab
5:46 do not like grabbing ledge there, gives up stage for no reason
marth just uses the stage presence to avoid puff’s hits and punish
5:35 drops the edgeguard hard
5:30 jumps away, then reads jump and grabs,
5:19 crazy scary dair
Stocks
AC nair crouch rest
restrict DD then dash attack into it, edgeguard
grab fthrow edgeguard
Stocks Lost
misses a raw rest read on grab that is actually a run through
called out with dsmash grabbing ledge
misses a raw rest read on grab that was a grab lol
dair is whiff punished grab fair high %
some bad DI, some high risk high reward plays, some high risk low reward aerials
Game 2 FoD
8:00 FH nair predictive uptilts grab attempt, forces shield, marth jumps into upair, easy techase rest but messes up waveland (dunno why waveland at all)
7:54 upair forces marth off, not great, marth runs to center
soft jumps to plat, waits
7:52 bair whiffs and marth happens to jump in then, should have waited
goes high then back to plat
marth is hanging back looking for low bair but FHs recognizing high stalling jumps (no need to do those)
7:43 poor spacing
7:41 good empty land grab
barely avoids the dair. I think the fair could have comboed if input earlier, not sure
7:37 soft recognizes not enough time for direct punish so feigns bair and then grabs
bair beats nair from ledge I don’t know why marths do that, combos with turn around fair
marth was really high so that is an awkward edgeguard, needed to not go out for last hit but marth guesses badly and gets thrown
they both make wonky decisions and marth dies
7:20 puff goes high to avoid inv marth chases puff goes around for bair, granted a 2nd, CC dsmash. Def should anticipate that.
7:17 goes to side plat but it’s low so goes high to watch for openings
7:13 late reaction from marth, gets baired. I probs would have tried uptilt after.
reacts to jump OoS with upair, was weird % range where doesn’t combo to upair. I need to see if that combos to rest because that happens out of dthrow a lot.
7:11 rising crossup on shield isn’t safe
7:09 barrrely lands that nair, was risky. grab? dtilt lol. Fair after so that’s ok. Funny.
I would have run up shielded after but soft is ok with stage, messes up punish.
7:04 crazy spacing
hbox edgeguard
6:55 recovers high
barely whiffs bair off side plat, goes to empty land punish again but marth grabs early, ideally crossup first
bad DI off the throw
6:43 intercepts marth’s path with dair. Soft keeps doing normally higher risk aerials with inv, which is neat. Tries to turn around uptilt but that’s not close to a combo. Even grab isn’t real at 0.
hangs around up high like armada’s peach
eventually guesses wrong with pound gets faired
6:38 dair from ledge really good there but crossup instead of combo to grab
predicts the timing of the WD wrong so loses stage but that’s a cool scenerio because FH bair that whiffs still burned enough shield that marth needed to twitch in some way or get poked.
good marth DD to get fairs, puff needs to fake approaches
6:25 I don’t like that nair because it’s so easy to beat and god has to personally grant you a followup if it hits
6:21 marth slips up gets baired. low% but doesn’t press down so eats another
soft either flubs or changes his mind and marth yolos a dsmash lol bair was suboptimal could have rested. After knockdown should have stayed grounded. rest OoS or dash attack bounce.
6:15 that dair is so scary, marth waits out the spotdodge probably accidentally
looks like puff jumped into the fsmash not anticipating the WD. whoops.
6:07 waits for something from marth, marth runs through which lets bair do a lot. Slow to grab ledge which lets fair happen. Actually a FH around it would have been best. UpB after was dsmashable or bair.
2 hbox edgeguards, stock.
5:49 slow to get out of marth’s path, goes high
marth can’t follow up off upair, gets faired, then juicy uptilt because low %, missed rest
5:41 kind of meh risk good reward pound but I think there it made sense for marth to dash back
5:38 dash grab barely whiffs, good reaction rest
Stocks
empty land grab to edgeguard
spaces around fsmash, bair to hbox edgeguard
fall from plat with bair then extended edgeguard
crouch rest on misspaced grab
Stocks lost
empty land is grabbed, bad DI off of throw
whiffs a dair recovering, grab fsmash
Game 5
PS
7:53 SH in DJ away to plat tests marth’s active-ness, marth backs away so next nair is more safe
7:50 really odd exchange, def should have just crouched
wtf is marth doing, so many wonky punishes this set
have to look up the frame data on reacting to marth’s throws. I think you just DI down and then rotate with the throw. Hard to tell what’s reaction and what’s prediction in practice.
7:44 risky pound, don’t think it had good reward either. Need to know based on %s.
7:40 WL off bair would have hit dash in. The fake out going up and then down just took time so eventual bair whiffs.
7:38 dunno what optimal punish is there. uptilt is so good if lands but very dependent on a bad opponent.
7:37 I think that was a good place to empty land. Why? Because he’s spaced far enough away to dash away from bair, in that marth DD spot and will run out of stage. Soft challenges both aggro and passive by AC uptilt but startup is poked. I think Hbox would have AC WDed just in case. Then we do the SH upair.
7:35 FH is great because lets puff react to marth, meh CC.
7:31 I do that nair too but I don’t like it ever. No reward. Just wait a moment.
7:27 marth’s SH makes fall to side safe.
7:26 should WL to plat then watch.
7:24 nair is a bait? Almost. I think SH bair dj bair/upair would combo there. SH bair has better range.
7:22 ledgegrab was greedy. High recovery is so much better vs marth ‘cause he has to commit to jump.
7:16 backthrow
but I guess he’s got the read on the habit dair so he can combo to rest.
7:09 double stick DI
7:04 I think there if puff dips low then marth either whiffs a dtilt and gets baired OR crouches and then pound trades with dtilt.
7:03 WD away beats roll and dair. Don’t think either was likely. Less mobile at low %.
6:58 good going up to let marth whiff, bad
6:57 upair
6:53 lol just jump away
6:47 great upair, whiffs rest
6:41 bair wasn’t late as possible so it wasn’t as deep as possible. There is no benefit to an late-ish bair over a late as possible bair.
good reactive FHs after.
6:36 upair
6:31 potential rest.
bad DI off the throw
6:26 obv no reason ever to upsmash. Rest.
6:24 lol maybe descending pound instead of bair on plat
I bet a second jab then fsmash would have broken shield
6:21 another rest. Hbox edgeguard gets it anyway.
6:05 potential crouch rest after dair because he grabs habitually
6:03 repeat, looks like AC nair uptilt is a soft tactic from center. (maybe pound is actually good there?)
6:00 ?
5:57 good positioning but a little slow off the plat
5:55 obv dair again, plus I dunno why upthrow > dthrow there.
5:54 reads the grab (because of run-through) but too early. Should probs spotdodge. Same reward less risk.
5:29 good pressure but bair has bad reward. Upair.
Too many scuffles this stock. Trading damage weird situation to situation is a bad gameplan.
5:16 rest
5:09 wow godlike shield
5:04 there was time to crossup bair
4:35 oh goodness, should just uptilt lol
4:23 good grab
4:21 this kind of whiffed bair is bad spacing.
4:18 marths do this SH fair crossup often enough I think we should practice punishing reactively with upair or something.
4:08 rest and a half
4:03 fsmash too high risk for little precedent read. Would have gotten another grab.
sing lol
3:38 techchase rest
Stocks
upair rests dair read off of upthrow
crouch fsmash grab, hbox edgeguard
high %, dash attack into DD
marth recovers badly, gives free edgegrab
Stocks lost
Gets scared and fsmash shieldpoke
Missed rest, shieldbreaker at high%
Missed rest, shieldbreaker at high%
neutral tempo (both free to move) guidelines(?)
* when marth is very close be patient and reestablish position outside of swing. Your challenges can be DDed around or stuffed too easily to make big commitments you can’t take back.
* when at tipper range stay low and reactive.
* when marth is really far away look to either take center or jump to plat as he comes in so that he has to jump to try to get you, if he stays empty or whiffs you come down with poke/punish
* when at “marth will DD out of SH bair” range FH, fall reactively, try to take stage
* when marth is cornered SH upair his available stage. Look to land at mid platform.
more niche:
* when marth is running at you and gives up the meat of his dash back then SH bair dj
FH is nice because he can't DD around it for free
Will probably do set 2 later because this is fun to watch.
so maybe the distinction in your head is "can he dash dance around SH? If yes FH, if no, SH bair."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj65Pl828pY
Game 1 FD
I don’t like FD myself because of no platforms so I feel like I get infinite edgeguarded from every part of the stage.
8:00 turn around fair after 2 zoning bairs. Bair would have hit too. It was on marth running in to punish land slow, I think. No followup after CC. Dunno what you can do to marth at 0.
7:55 marth tries to come down over a puff SH. Doesn’t work that’s so telegraphed. Gets his shield up in time for the bair. That seems to be a theme in this MU. Lots of swings are difficult to punish directly without perrrrfect spacing so he gets to shield a lot. Actually at low % I would bank on that and just grab. They love to shield and aerials don’t do anything for a bit so grab dthrow techchase/upthrow aerials.
Falling upair after but marth just moves out. I think either puff should practice poking a full shield with upair or stop doing it because it’s a huge waste of time the way we use it like that right there.
Wow marth whiffs that grab by a mile. Misspaced dair. jump away from land gets grabbed which is a little odd. Means he overshot the grab. Marth prioritizes combo over tipper because of %, puff jumps out.
7:49 ff pound is surprising and more likely because marth doesn’t want to run to the edge of the stage there.
Techchase is short, pressures shield with FH AC nair. shield grab was a little late and gets rested off a read. Had to frame by frame to verify it wasn’t a poke lol.
7:43 smart rest punish but soft recognizes and gets the DI, stalls so that he doesn’t give marth free hits, goes over
7:38 starts upair too late so landing lag gets baired, good jump out of hitstun avoids grab
7:35 recognizes potential bait and backs off rather than fall with bair then immediately jumps
reads grab attempt, dair punish but uptilt doesn’t combo this low. i think it starts at about 25.
no follow up on the grab, marth is cornered but bair whiffs, lucky duck under the grab but late reactions (which is understandable because a late reaction there is a normal reaction elsewhere lol) gets grabbed. DIs out again.
7:25 marth uses his ample real estate but is a little slow so soft can jump back, crosses marth up again. bair doesn’t have enough hitstun to combo, good DI out of fairs
7:21 marth ducks under FH bair and gets upaired because he’s not ready to move so soon. Obviously going to hit the ground based on holding down, soft’s brain keeps thinking marth is higher % than he is.
7:19 was mayyyybe a rest but land grab is safer because marth is afraid
that dair is a marth player habit so you can bait it
7:16 soft tries to preemptively rest a grab that doesn’t happen. That’s a break in marth’s pattern though. Poor DI off the throw.
7:06 soft uses inv to cut off half the stage and restrict DD, marth takes to ledge which is fine.
run up shield then roll right because he wants stage. Soft is ready, nairs (bad reward) but marth holds down. Tries to dair for some reason, puff gets a bair. Missed tech. Bad reaction (you could just run up and crouch next to him) and puff gets hit with attack. Has to give stage back.
7:02 Marth dtilts but recognizes he has enough time to DD grab a FH bair from puff.
stalls high, marth gives puff center
FH bair corners marth, FH nair in response (why?)
6:54 dash attacks into marth’s DD now that it is pinched so small
let go regrab edgeguard
6:47 waits for too long on the ground, dtilted, hangs out of the way, marth falls back farther than puff can and fsmashes
6:42 dsmashed going for greedy ledgegrab, that’s an early death
6:33 not sure why the empty land spaced out. Low bair crouch is better if no intent to grab/uptilt.
6:34 puff doesn’t like spacing on descent to spaces out enough to aerial an incoming grab but marth shffls instead.
6:31 spotdodges a grab that was cool. punish whiffs. Attemps to read away movement OoS based on previous history. Accurate but marth was quick. Late upair would have connected, early upair maybe covered still option via head poke
not sure what dair was for, maybe to cover a spotdodge. Marth runs through and fsmashes. When marths run through me I roll into them because I hate that shit and will rest them to get them to stop.
6:26 marth sees high, doesn’t expect sudden descent
puff’s bair whiffs the dj (upair but that is a weird spot)
attempts to premptively rest the grab. Input is late and whiffs. That’s a lot of reads on grab in a row.
Shieldbreaker is techable.
6:14 takes center then takes a lot of stage with still inv nair. Cool.
6:12 random fsmash
bad pound
6:10 CC grab
stays around to long gets grabbed
6:04 takes center, jumps for the rest of the stage (seems like what makes a land good or bad is the timing of marth’s dash back, which is effectively random, which sucks). Doesn’t overextend but does unsafe uptilt that gets grabbed
6:00 goes straight to center, jumps in, marth pins himself but CC dsmashes, goes for a kill with another but is really slow. That’s several “random” smashes in a row, he wants to close the match out.
punishes with bair (would upair have gotten hit from the bottom? probs)
super super baits the roll, marth tilts shield up to avoid poke
5:52 pretty questionable dash attack
CC the side B, grab
5:46 do not like grabbing ledge there, gives up stage for no reason
marth just uses the stage presence to avoid puff’s hits and punish
5:35 drops the edgeguard hard
5:30 jumps away, then reads jump and grabs,
5:19 crazy scary dair
Stocks
AC nair crouch rest
restrict DD then dash attack into it, edgeguard
grab fthrow edgeguard
Stocks Lost
misses a raw rest read on grab that is actually a run through
called out with dsmash grabbing ledge
misses a raw rest read on grab that was a grab lol
dair is whiff punished grab fair high %
some bad DI, some high risk high reward plays, some high risk low reward aerials
Game 2 FoD
8:00 FH nair predictive uptilts grab attempt, forces shield, marth jumps into upair, easy techase rest but messes up waveland (dunno why waveland at all)
7:54 upair forces marth off, not great, marth runs to center
soft jumps to plat, waits
7:52 bair whiffs and marth happens to jump in then, should have waited
goes high then back to plat
marth is hanging back looking for low bair but FHs recognizing high stalling jumps (no need to do those)
7:43 poor spacing
7:41 good empty land grab
barely avoids the dair. I think the fair could have comboed if input earlier, not sure
7:37 soft recognizes not enough time for direct punish so feigns bair and then grabs
bair beats nair from ledge I don’t know why marths do that, combos with turn around fair
marth was really high so that is an awkward edgeguard, needed to not go out for last hit but marth guesses badly and gets thrown
they both make wonky decisions and marth dies
7:20 puff goes high to avoid inv marth chases puff goes around for bair, granted a 2nd, CC dsmash. Def should anticipate that.
7:17 goes to side plat but it’s low so goes high to watch for openings
7:13 late reaction from marth, gets baired. I probs would have tried uptilt after.
reacts to jump OoS with upair, was weird % range where doesn’t combo to upair. I need to see if that combos to rest because that happens out of dthrow a lot.
7:11 rising crossup on shield isn’t safe
7:09 barrrely lands that nair, was risky. grab? dtilt lol. Fair after so that’s ok. Funny.
I would have run up shielded after but soft is ok with stage, messes up punish.
7:04 crazy spacing
hbox edgeguard
6:55 recovers high
barely whiffs bair off side plat, goes to empty land punish again but marth grabs early, ideally crossup first
bad DI off the throw
6:43 intercepts marth’s path with dair. Soft keeps doing normally higher risk aerials with inv, which is neat. Tries to turn around uptilt but that’s not close to a combo. Even grab isn’t real at 0.
hangs around up high like armada’s peach
eventually guesses wrong with pound gets faired
6:38 dair from ledge really good there but crossup instead of combo to grab
predicts the timing of the WD wrong so loses stage but that’s a cool scenerio because FH bair that whiffs still burned enough shield that marth needed to twitch in some way or get poked.
good marth DD to get fairs, puff needs to fake approaches
6:25 I don’t like that nair because it’s so easy to beat and god has to personally grant you a followup if it hits
6:21 marth slips up gets baired. low% but doesn’t press down so eats another
soft either flubs or changes his mind and marth yolos a dsmash lol bair was suboptimal could have rested. After knockdown should have stayed grounded. rest OoS or dash attack bounce.
6:15 that dair is so scary, marth waits out the spotdodge probably accidentally
looks like puff jumped into the fsmash not anticipating the WD. whoops.
6:07 waits for something from marth, marth runs through which lets bair do a lot. Slow to grab ledge which lets fair happen. Actually a FH around it would have been best. UpB after was dsmashable or bair.
2 hbox edgeguards, stock.
5:49 slow to get out of marth’s path, goes high
marth can’t follow up off upair, gets faired, then juicy uptilt because low %, missed rest
5:41 kind of meh risk good reward pound but I think there it made sense for marth to dash back
5:38 dash grab barely whiffs, good reaction rest
Stocks
empty land grab to edgeguard
spaces around fsmash, bair to hbox edgeguard
fall from plat with bair then extended edgeguard
crouch rest on misspaced grab
Stocks lost
empty land is grabbed, bad DI off of throw
whiffs a dair recovering, grab fsmash
Game 5
PS
7:53 SH in DJ away to plat tests marth’s active-ness, marth backs away so next nair is more safe
7:50 really odd exchange, def should have just crouched
wtf is marth doing, so many wonky punishes this set
have to look up the frame data on reacting to marth’s throws. I think you just DI down and then rotate with the throw. Hard to tell what’s reaction and what’s prediction in practice.
7:44 risky pound, don’t think it had good reward either. Need to know based on %s.
7:40 WL off bair would have hit dash in. The fake out going up and then down just took time so eventual bair whiffs.
7:38 dunno what optimal punish is there. uptilt is so good if lands but very dependent on a bad opponent.
7:37 I think that was a good place to empty land. Why? Because he’s spaced far enough away to dash away from bair, in that marth DD spot and will run out of stage. Soft challenges both aggro and passive by AC uptilt but startup is poked. I think Hbox would have AC WDed just in case. Then we do the SH upair.
7:35 FH is great because lets puff react to marth, meh CC.
7:31 I do that nair too but I don’t like it ever. No reward. Just wait a moment.
7:27 marth’s SH makes fall to side safe.
7:26 should WL to plat then watch.
7:24 nair is a bait? Almost. I think SH bair dj bair/upair would combo there. SH bair has better range.
7:22 ledgegrab was greedy. High recovery is so much better vs marth ‘cause he has to commit to jump.
7:16 backthrow
but I guess he’s got the read on the habit dair so he can combo to rest.
7:09 double stick DI
7:04 I think there if puff dips low then marth either whiffs a dtilt and gets baired OR crouches and then pound trades with dtilt.
7:03 WD away beats roll and dair. Don’t think either was likely. Less mobile at low %.
6:58 good going up to let marth whiff, bad
6:57 upair
6:53 lol just jump away
6:47 great upair, whiffs rest
6:41 bair wasn’t late as possible so it wasn’t as deep as possible. There is no benefit to an late-ish bair over a late as possible bair.
good reactive FHs after.
6:36 upair
6:31 potential rest.
bad DI off the throw
6:26 obv no reason ever to upsmash. Rest.
6:24 lol maybe descending pound instead of bair on plat
I bet a second jab then fsmash would have broken shield
6:21 another rest. Hbox edgeguard gets it anyway.
6:05 potential crouch rest after dair because he grabs habitually
6:03 repeat, looks like AC nair uptilt is a soft tactic from center. (maybe pound is actually good there?)
6:00 ?
5:57 good positioning but a little slow off the plat
5:55 obv dair again, plus I dunno why upthrow > dthrow there.
5:54 reads the grab (because of run-through) but too early. Should probs spotdodge. Same reward less risk.
5:29 good pressure but bair has bad reward. Upair.
Too many scuffles this stock. Trading damage weird situation to situation is a bad gameplan.
5:16 rest
5:09 wow godlike shield
5:04 there was time to crossup bair
4:35 oh goodness, should just uptilt lol
4:23 good grab
4:21 this kind of whiffed bair is bad spacing.
4:18 marths do this SH fair crossup often enough I think we should practice punishing reactively with upair or something.
4:08 rest and a half
4:03 fsmash too high risk for little precedent read. Would have gotten another grab.
sing lol
3:38 techchase rest
Stocks
upair rests dair read off of upthrow
crouch fsmash grab, hbox edgeguard
high %, dash attack into DD
marth recovers badly, gives free edgegrab
Stocks lost
Gets scared and fsmash shieldpoke
Missed rest, shieldbreaker at high%
Missed rest, shieldbreaker at high%
neutral tempo (both free to move) guidelines(?)
* when marth is very close be patient and reestablish position outside of swing. Your challenges can be DDed around or stuffed too easily to make big commitments you can’t take back.
* when at tipper range stay low and reactive.
* when marth is really far away look to either take center or jump to plat as he comes in so that he has to jump to try to get you, if he stays empty or whiffs you come down with poke/punish
* when at “marth will DD out of SH bair” range FH, fall reactively, try to take stage
* when marth is cornered SH upair his available stage. Look to land at mid platform.
more niche:
* when marth is running at you and gives up the meat of his dash back then SH bair dj
FH is nice because he can't DD around it for free
Will probably do set 2 later because this is fun to watch.
so maybe the distinction in your head is "can he dash dance around SH? If yes FH, if no, SH bair."
Abu vs The Moon Analysis
Abu vs The Moon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ZiY1bvvEg
Game 1 BF
8:00 non-neutral start
WD out to avoid fair, fadeback isn’t full so bair whiffs
unsure movement, both players waiting for opening, abu avoids fair by fading out last moment
then WD out to avoid second fair, I would have gotten hit for sure. Bair is CCed but no punish, second bair. Shield is clearly up for 3rd because low%. Not sure what optimal punish is, maybe empty land grab. Abu prioritizes stage.
7:54 WD away from obvious aggression. Marth FH here is interesting because it gives him a lot of option but his legs are vulnerable. Abu respects ff fair and lets the moon down but that much retreat wasn’t necessary. He gets faired for jumping in from too far away.
7:51 Moon WDes out of dtilt when it whiffs, conservatve
follow up bair whiffs and abu takes lots of damage from bad DI. I don’t like trying to punish marth dtilt OoS when not right on top of him, seems like he wins all the time, prefer WD away.
7:45 moon messes up movement and abu touches ground, shields, turns his back, DD, whiff, WD away from dash grab. Roll is probably misclick bair.
7:42 that was actually a rest. You can duck under marth’s nair easy. AC can’t hit crouching puff and there he had time before the ff. Don’t know what made the moon do that.
7:41 the moon dairs. Important to note that he’s willing to do that when puff is on him.
jumps into a bair. Abu gives up too much stage to follow up again and gets faired.
7:37 stalling high waiting for marth to commit time to a jump/retreat so puff regains stage.
7:32 moon isn’t ready for bair but CC dtilts it. Really important to note this consistent reaction. Means that until he’s out of CC you have to super space it unless you hit him in the air.
7:29 gets grabbed out of a land. I would have rolled in after the whiff, make marth work for it.
missed pivot fsmash, abu sneaks back, moon recognizes % and sideB uptilts.
moon in general has shown competence in the MU. Plans are based on %, not over-extending, awareness of puff’s options. He’s ok with letting puff touch the ground and keeping center stage so he can push her off again.
7:18 dtilts the land again. Almost like how armada’s fox uses it. I don’t know why it lands though it’d be weird if that shield poked.
7:15, moon sniffs the approach and fsmash trades for the kill.
7:07 good shield, no need for WD so no grab but ducks the grab punish
weird rest punish
6:59 wow that nair gets a grab but I was waiting for moon to fair out
should be dthrow FH techchase rest. Abu SHs so no punish, second upair could have poked if faded further away, gets faired
6:53 abu is afraid of no stage so he rolls through after moon dashes forward but moon waits it out but then messes up punish
6:53 maybe a rest (or nair grab) bair gets abu 12% and stage
I really dislike the FH after. Marth isn’t high enough so if just puts you in danger.
6:47 barely sneaks through
leaving self empty and turn around after marth runs under is good
6:44 after they both whiff that’s a FH upar but late reaction
marth sees the crossup and nairs OoS which is again an upair
6:38 fair whiffs because it was FH DJ fair instead of SH
6:36 bair probably would connect if abu stayed low and close instead of outside of dtilt spacing
late OoS after dtilt, the moon is ok with just holding center, not looking to press an advantage
6:34 abu goes to side platform instead of pressing for stage here. That’s 2015 hbox. But he gives up his spot right away I don’t know why.
The moon gives him center right after though.
looool the staredown at that bair
6:29 no need to shield after CC. missed opportunity. Moon prioritizes getting back to center, Abu catches him not shielding with upair.
6:25 wow great anticipation of the dair but whiffs the punish
6:22 trades probably reading a second dtilt should have gone low not high after.
uses marth’s endlag to get back with bair
6:15 that was a tricky fsmash
sideB nicks jump, uptilt
6:08 whiffs bair on return, jumps with run but misspaces dair. Marth spotdodges around a potential late grab, I would have done the same dair after but shielded because it makes sense for marth to aeiral out of that spot. Maybe ideally you WD through then watch what he does, looking for roll away.
6:02 I think that is giving marth in the air too much space/respect.
bad spacing vs nair after
5:59 why does that dtilt hit? is abu tilting his shield or something? Weird and dumb.
the grab after is smart. Probably should have just run to the platform. That’s just a bad position for puff to try to play neutral.
5:48 Idk why you would do that fsmash. That was an awkward spacing to punish OoS so easiest is upsmash but that fsmash wasn’t going to work ever. 0/10 times.
The DI in the throw is always down and away (after 0). It’s a really hard reaction though.
5:34 marth predicts the aerial timing so he gets a nair
5:32 I do not like puff holding in there.
the moon makes puff go too low threatening dair, abu runs out of jumps because he’s afraid to pound. pounding is ok though because if you get tilted you can DI it up for extra chances. There was one clear DJ grab ledge in the middle of all that and at least one pound.
Stocks:
crouch rest grab punish after missed grab
Stocks Lost:
preemptive bair gets fsmashed
jumps into sideB uptilt
WD fsmash OoS gets shielded grabbed tipper
gets funneled downward and uses too many jumps recovering.
Two big observations
* You can’t keep marth honest and mix up aerial timings/empty lands/etc if you always act first. If marth is able to just stand still and wait for you to twitch then he doesn’t have to respect you as much. There were lots of opportunities. Moon definitely abused being patient better. Just thinking about it I don’t know what marth’s incentive is if he’s in the lead/has stage. I think it’s really position dependent so you’d probably have to watch the match back and look for positions that require marth to move so that you can put yourself in those spots in the future.
* When stuck under the platform just jump onto it. That’s a horrible horrible position to be vs marth because marth has ample ample dash dance space behind him and you can’t back up any more (because his sword is one of the few things in the game that can easily pressure you when you’re off stage).
Soft’s obs:
"abu is doing a lot of preemptive aerials to marth
which beats marth trying to threaten puff and take space with just his movement
or a marth that is preemptively aerialing
but moon is waiting on abu
and reacting
it becomes really easy for him because abu attacks from too far away most of the time
so he can either react with an aerial or just shield it
an example is in 1:35 of the video
abu attacks from too far away and the moon just shields it
and gets a side b but it looks like he could have gotten a lot more
either way by attacking from a react-able distance moon gets to play really safe and not risk much but get a lot of reward
at 15:42 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj65Pl828pY
I am in a very similar situation where I am too far to attack so I empty hop
to bait him to do something
then I get to punish him"
Game 2 DL
8:00 whiff punish gets CC naired. Need to look for % appropriate followups if they exist
Hbox tries to space very close then grab or backs off and looks for next opportunity
abu ends up taking 40 from poor DI off that
small position conversions to hits continue for a while
7:43 lol abu goes right back but does a good job spacing incrementally in this time
7:37 slow reaction
7:35 jump in was weird I don’t know why marth would dash back which is the only thing it would beat
7:30 good WD away from grab but shitty punish choice
upair should have been bair
7:27 stalls high then takes center
7:23 I don’t like that crossup. was a shieldgrab. Maybe crossup was good if puff like uptilts?
7:22 marth intentionally trades which is eh
7:20 marth predicts no jump so grabs.
7:14 good fadeback then second bair
should land run up after knockdown. Shield was anticipating getup attack but you can prompt that better and double tap A option select vs normal getup.
late bair gets naired.
7:06 WD grab
7:04 wowww did he just react to CC with dtilt? Good roll out of situation. Could have punished but that’s a quick reaction from that no warning spot.
Shield is too low to hold it, need to FH to plat I think.
6:56 bad spacing
6:46 slightly misspaced
good wait for twitch after
good shield on reaction to the nair
no OoS punish. You have to do sommmething.
6:41 obv fair needed to bait it out or come from lower
6:36 that was a scary ass fsmash. Moon looks like he’s studied the MU.
6:34 that’s the second time abu shields then rolls after CCing sideB instead of punishing.
dair pokes but abu wasn’t ready for his move to work.
no edgeguard.
good FH spacing around nair
attempts hbox edgeguard but grabs ledge too early
6:08 grab
5:55 need to learn best OoS punish vs nair. I think it’d be dair OoS. It’s only -1 but marths are always immobile after.
abu’s grab is baited hard
5:48 upsmash was too late to work gets faired
upsmash at 197 lol
bair is so stale that it’s an issue.
5:30 coming back low was good but facing away in shield puts him in a bad spot
5:26 bad nair
it’s easier to come back high or low if you go really high then choose because it takes puff so long to jump up
5:23 bad shield pins abu
just keeps putting himself in the corner afraid of marth’s space
4:56 like why is he moving bck now that he’s finally in center?
marth just walks up and kills him
4:47 juggles well but lets marth get through shielding instead of falling
lots of flubby movement
4:22 moon is happy to trade hits with the whole stage behind him and a stock up
smells abu being nervous and empty hop grabs
4:14 second upair too slow
abu’s been shielding every time he lands so moon just grabs him raw
4:04 bair punish was late so trades
3:59 dair grab from ledge is good, DI grants bair
3:50 good upair
3:48 don’t know why dropped shield it was good posiiton
3:42 another shield poke? I’m gonna have to look that up. Maybe the middle hitbox has priority or something.
abu is at high enough % and uses enough jumps the moon can just meet him
3:30 retreats so far away
3:25 bad spacing after such high nair, eats fairs, poor DI, ken combo
Stocks
upsmash at 197 lol
dair grab backthrow bair
Stocks Lost
spaces too close to land, gets uptilted
WD forward is fsmashed at high %
marth jumps out and fairs stall jumps
bad DI off fair string, ken combo
rest of the set is kind of more of the same so don't want to do it right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ZiY1bvvEg
Game 1 BF
8:00 non-neutral start
WD out to avoid fair, fadeback isn’t full so bair whiffs
unsure movement, both players waiting for opening, abu avoids fair by fading out last moment
then WD out to avoid second fair, I would have gotten hit for sure. Bair is CCed but no punish, second bair. Shield is clearly up for 3rd because low%. Not sure what optimal punish is, maybe empty land grab. Abu prioritizes stage.
7:54 WD away from obvious aggression. Marth FH here is interesting because it gives him a lot of option but his legs are vulnerable. Abu respects ff fair and lets the moon down but that much retreat wasn’t necessary. He gets faired for jumping in from too far away.
7:51 Moon WDes out of dtilt when it whiffs, conservatve
follow up bair whiffs and abu takes lots of damage from bad DI. I don’t like trying to punish marth dtilt OoS when not right on top of him, seems like he wins all the time, prefer WD away.
7:45 moon messes up movement and abu touches ground, shields, turns his back, DD, whiff, WD away from dash grab. Roll is probably misclick bair.
7:42 that was actually a rest. You can duck under marth’s nair easy. AC can’t hit crouching puff and there he had time before the ff. Don’t know what made the moon do that.
7:41 the moon dairs. Important to note that he’s willing to do that when puff is on him.
jumps into a bair. Abu gives up too much stage to follow up again and gets faired.
7:37 stalling high waiting for marth to commit time to a jump/retreat so puff regains stage.
7:32 moon isn’t ready for bair but CC dtilts it. Really important to note this consistent reaction. Means that until he’s out of CC you have to super space it unless you hit him in the air.
7:29 gets grabbed out of a land. I would have rolled in after the whiff, make marth work for it.
missed pivot fsmash, abu sneaks back, moon recognizes % and sideB uptilts.
moon in general has shown competence in the MU. Plans are based on %, not over-extending, awareness of puff’s options. He’s ok with letting puff touch the ground and keeping center stage so he can push her off again.
7:18 dtilts the land again. Almost like how armada’s fox uses it. I don’t know why it lands though it’d be weird if that shield poked.
7:15, moon sniffs the approach and fsmash trades for the kill.
7:07 good shield, no need for WD so no grab but ducks the grab punish
weird rest punish
6:59 wow that nair gets a grab but I was waiting for moon to fair out
should be dthrow FH techchase rest. Abu SHs so no punish, second upair could have poked if faded further away, gets faired
6:53 abu is afraid of no stage so he rolls through after moon dashes forward but moon waits it out but then messes up punish
6:53 maybe a rest (or nair grab) bair gets abu 12% and stage
I really dislike the FH after. Marth isn’t high enough so if just puts you in danger.
6:47 barely sneaks through
leaving self empty and turn around after marth runs under is good
6:44 after they both whiff that’s a FH upar but late reaction
marth sees the crossup and nairs OoS which is again an upair
6:38 fair whiffs because it was FH DJ fair instead of SH
6:36 bair probably would connect if abu stayed low and close instead of outside of dtilt spacing
late OoS after dtilt, the moon is ok with just holding center, not looking to press an advantage
6:34 abu goes to side platform instead of pressing for stage here. That’s 2015 hbox. But he gives up his spot right away I don’t know why.
The moon gives him center right after though.
looool the staredown at that bair
6:29 no need to shield after CC. missed opportunity. Moon prioritizes getting back to center, Abu catches him not shielding with upair.
6:25 wow great anticipation of the dair but whiffs the punish
6:22 trades probably reading a second dtilt should have gone low not high after.
uses marth’s endlag to get back with bair
6:15 that was a tricky fsmash
sideB nicks jump, uptilt
6:08 whiffs bair on return, jumps with run but misspaces dair. Marth spotdodges around a potential late grab, I would have done the same dair after but shielded because it makes sense for marth to aeiral out of that spot. Maybe ideally you WD through then watch what he does, looking for roll away.
6:02 I think that is giving marth in the air too much space/respect.
bad spacing vs nair after
5:59 why does that dtilt hit? is abu tilting his shield or something? Weird and dumb.
the grab after is smart. Probably should have just run to the platform. That’s just a bad position for puff to try to play neutral.
5:48 Idk why you would do that fsmash. That was an awkward spacing to punish OoS so easiest is upsmash but that fsmash wasn’t going to work ever. 0/10 times.
The DI in the throw is always down and away (after 0). It’s a really hard reaction though.
5:34 marth predicts the aerial timing so he gets a nair
5:32 I do not like puff holding in there.
the moon makes puff go too low threatening dair, abu runs out of jumps because he’s afraid to pound. pounding is ok though because if you get tilted you can DI it up for extra chances. There was one clear DJ grab ledge in the middle of all that and at least one pound.
Stocks:
crouch rest grab punish after missed grab
Stocks Lost:
preemptive bair gets fsmashed
jumps into sideB uptilt
WD fsmash OoS gets shielded grabbed tipper
gets funneled downward and uses too many jumps recovering.
Two big observations
* You can’t keep marth honest and mix up aerial timings/empty lands/etc if you always act first. If marth is able to just stand still and wait for you to twitch then he doesn’t have to respect you as much. There were lots of opportunities. Moon definitely abused being patient better. Just thinking about it I don’t know what marth’s incentive is if he’s in the lead/has stage. I think it’s really position dependent so you’d probably have to watch the match back and look for positions that require marth to move so that you can put yourself in those spots in the future.
* When stuck under the platform just jump onto it. That’s a horrible horrible position to be vs marth because marth has ample ample dash dance space behind him and you can’t back up any more (because his sword is one of the few things in the game that can easily pressure you when you’re off stage).
Soft’s obs:
"abu is doing a lot of preemptive aerials to marth
which beats marth trying to threaten puff and take space with just his movement
or a marth that is preemptively aerialing
but moon is waiting on abu
and reacting
it becomes really easy for him because abu attacks from too far away most of the time
so he can either react with an aerial or just shield it
an example is in 1:35 of the video
abu attacks from too far away and the moon just shields it
and gets a side b but it looks like he could have gotten a lot more
either way by attacking from a react-able distance moon gets to play really safe and not risk much but get a lot of reward
at 15:42 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj65Pl828pY
I am in a very similar situation where I am too far to attack so I empty hop
to bait him to do something
then I get to punish him"
Game 2 DL
8:00 whiff punish gets CC naired. Need to look for % appropriate followups if they exist
Hbox tries to space very close then grab or backs off and looks for next opportunity
abu ends up taking 40 from poor DI off that
small position conversions to hits continue for a while
7:43 lol abu goes right back but does a good job spacing incrementally in this time
7:37 slow reaction
7:35 jump in was weird I don’t know why marth would dash back which is the only thing it would beat
7:30 good WD away from grab but shitty punish choice
upair should have been bair
7:27 stalls high then takes center
7:23 I don’t like that crossup. was a shieldgrab. Maybe crossup was good if puff like uptilts?
7:22 marth intentionally trades which is eh
7:20 marth predicts no jump so grabs.
7:14 good fadeback then second bair
should land run up after knockdown. Shield was anticipating getup attack but you can prompt that better and double tap A option select vs normal getup.
late bair gets naired.
7:06 WD grab
7:04 wowww did he just react to CC with dtilt? Good roll out of situation. Could have punished but that’s a quick reaction from that no warning spot.
Shield is too low to hold it, need to FH to plat I think.
6:56 bad spacing
6:46 slightly misspaced
good wait for twitch after
good shield on reaction to the nair
no OoS punish. You have to do sommmething.
6:41 obv fair needed to bait it out or come from lower
6:36 that was a scary ass fsmash. Moon looks like he’s studied the MU.
6:34 that’s the second time abu shields then rolls after CCing sideB instead of punishing.
dair pokes but abu wasn’t ready for his move to work.
no edgeguard.
good FH spacing around nair
attempts hbox edgeguard but grabs ledge too early
6:08 grab
5:55 need to learn best OoS punish vs nair. I think it’d be dair OoS. It’s only -1 but marths are always immobile after.
abu’s grab is baited hard
5:48 upsmash was too late to work gets faired
upsmash at 197 lol
bair is so stale that it’s an issue.
5:30 coming back low was good but facing away in shield puts him in a bad spot
5:26 bad nair
it’s easier to come back high or low if you go really high then choose because it takes puff so long to jump up
5:23 bad shield pins abu
just keeps putting himself in the corner afraid of marth’s space
4:56 like why is he moving bck now that he’s finally in center?
marth just walks up and kills him
4:47 juggles well but lets marth get through shielding instead of falling
lots of flubby movement
4:22 moon is happy to trade hits with the whole stage behind him and a stock up
smells abu being nervous and empty hop grabs
4:14 second upair too slow
abu’s been shielding every time he lands so moon just grabs him raw
4:04 bair punish was late so trades
3:59 dair grab from ledge is good, DI grants bair
3:50 good upair
3:48 don’t know why dropped shield it was good posiiton
3:42 another shield poke? I’m gonna have to look that up. Maybe the middle hitbox has priority or something.
abu is at high enough % and uses enough jumps the moon can just meet him
3:30 retreats so far away
3:25 bad spacing after such high nair, eats fairs, poor DI, ken combo
Stocks
upsmash at 197 lol
dair grab backthrow bair
Stocks Lost
spaces too close to land, gets uptilted
WD forward is fsmashed at high %
marth jumps out and fairs stall jumps
bad DI off fair string, ken combo
rest of the set is kind of more of the same so don't want to do it right now.
Wednesday, December 9, 2015
I think that melee players on the whole perpetuate fundamental errors of understanding that create massive stumbling blocks in both conceptualizing and gameplay.
Among these:
* Option vs Option as overly important (false: where/when trumps what every time)
* Neutral is a valuable concept (false: Position is a valuable concept)
* Fundamentals exist (false: fundamentals are useless generalizations)
* Methodology of first things first (false: the end is important, the means is the means. Combo trees that don't end with a stock can be uprooted.)
Specific and verifiable information is the most valuable. Generalizations are at best misleading and at worst actively harmful. Identifying and solving for specific problems is the only alternative to "learning through osmosis."
Among these:
* Option vs Option as overly important (false: where/when trumps what every time)
* Neutral is a valuable concept (false: Position is a valuable concept)
* Fundamentals exist (false: fundamentals are useless generalizations)
* Methodology of first things first (false: the end is important, the means is the means. Combo trees that don't end with a stock can be uprooted.)
Specific and verifiable information is the most valuable. Generalizations are at best misleading and at worst actively harmful. Identifying and solving for specific problems is the only alternative to "learning through osmosis."
Techtraps
Puff Techtraps
In melee, in order to tech you must have digitally pressed L/R within 20f before hitting the ground (see: meleemechanics video). After every digital L/R input (including shielding) the game registers a 40f downtime. If you press L/R again within these 40f then you will not tech and the 40f downtime will be refreshed. This is designed to harshly punish mashing tech inputs.
A techtrap is a method of exploiting this downtime to ensure that a second tech is not possible.
Jigglypuff’s upthrow upair under platforms is her most recognizable techtrap. Should a fast faller attempt to tech the upthrow then the upair’s low KB will delay the ground collision just enough that he will still be in tech downtime and thus unable to tech when he hits the platform, then you rest him. In order to tech the upair the spacie must choose to not tech the upthrow. Naturally, this leaves Jigglypuff with the option to simply not upair and to rest the resulting missed tech on upthrow. In this way techtraps at a high level are a mixup.
In order to eliminate false techtraps an intelligent player will buffer the first tech early and input the second tech late. Most people do this intuitively. Executed well this minimizes the trap timing to 20f. For a late techtrap to be “real” the hit must connect as closely as possible to the ground collision without it occurring and opponent must then collide with the ground within 20f of the original timing (realistically I think that you can confidently estimate for 30f before your gamble on their imperfect execution gets testy).
LATE TECHTRAPS on ffers include (% before hit, approximate)
uptilt, 9-15%
upsmash at 15%
dash attack ~30-60%
bair ~35-60%
HOWEVER
you can punish people for inputting techs early by timing your hit early. This is where techtraps get wonky and interesting. If you hit someone earlier (at about 15-20f before they hit the ground) then it will eat up their tech input (they won’t be hitting the ground within 20f) and it makes your techtraps more reliable over a greater % range by virtue of having a full 40f of downtime. This is made even more lenient because you can use hitlag frames as a window to cover later timings (this is exactly why upsmash works well in practice). Basically early techtraps are superior to late techtraps in that they have the same weakness (they lose to no tech input) but work over wider windows.
EARLY TECHTRAPS on ffers include (% before hit, approximate)
uptilt, 9-30%
upsmash at 15-30%
dash attack ~30-70%
bair ~35-80%
Note that some of these last longer than you could possibly follow up.
Note too that you can combo to rest instead of waiting for the tech trap to play out and then jab reset resting. This is all relatively situational but it’s cool that once more melee aligns itself into an elegant system.
This is an unlikely mixup compared to simply not teching but should an opponent attempt to counter your early techtraps by delaying his input (you can usually hear it from their controller) then you should just delay your hits.
Niche funny thing: Because shielding activates tech downtime for 40f Puff’s fthrow/bthrow on spacies will reliably techtrap under 40% if you grab as the shield comes up but they will go far enough from the throw that you’re not going to be able to get there to jab. There are DI dependent setups to get a platform techchase from fthrow on floaties with fthrow. This is more practical with other characters that have fast throws (ex: Marth’s dthrow).
In melee, in order to tech you must have digitally pressed L/R within 20f before hitting the ground (see: meleemechanics video). After every digital L/R input (including shielding) the game registers a 40f downtime. If you press L/R again within these 40f then you will not tech and the 40f downtime will be refreshed. This is designed to harshly punish mashing tech inputs.
A techtrap is a method of exploiting this downtime to ensure that a second tech is not possible.
Jigglypuff’s upthrow upair under platforms is her most recognizable techtrap. Should a fast faller attempt to tech the upthrow then the upair’s low KB will delay the ground collision just enough that he will still be in tech downtime and thus unable to tech when he hits the platform, then you rest him. In order to tech the upair the spacie must choose to not tech the upthrow. Naturally, this leaves Jigglypuff with the option to simply not upair and to rest the resulting missed tech on upthrow. In this way techtraps at a high level are a mixup.
In order to eliminate false techtraps an intelligent player will buffer the first tech early and input the second tech late. Most people do this intuitively. Executed well this minimizes the trap timing to 20f. For a late techtrap to be “real” the hit must connect as closely as possible to the ground collision without it occurring and opponent must then collide with the ground within 20f of the original timing (realistically I think that you can confidently estimate for 30f before your gamble on their imperfect execution gets testy).
LATE TECHTRAPS on ffers include (% before hit, approximate)
uptilt, 9-15%
upsmash at 15%
dash attack ~30-60%
bair ~35-60%
HOWEVER
you can punish people for inputting techs early by timing your hit early. This is where techtraps get wonky and interesting. If you hit someone earlier (at about 15-20f before they hit the ground) then it will eat up their tech input (they won’t be hitting the ground within 20f) and it makes your techtraps more reliable over a greater % range by virtue of having a full 40f of downtime. This is made even more lenient because you can use hitlag frames as a window to cover later timings (this is exactly why upsmash works well in practice). Basically early techtraps are superior to late techtraps in that they have the same weakness (they lose to no tech input) but work over wider windows.
EARLY TECHTRAPS on ffers include (% before hit, approximate)
uptilt, 9-30%
upsmash at 15-30%
dash attack ~30-70%
bair ~35-80%
Note that some of these last longer than you could possibly follow up.
Note too that you can combo to rest instead of waiting for the tech trap to play out and then jab reset resting. This is all relatively situational but it’s cool that once more melee aligns itself into an elegant system.
This is an unlikely mixup compared to simply not teching but should an opponent attempt to counter your early techtraps by delaying his input (you can usually hear it from their controller) then you should just delay your hits.
Niche funny thing: Because shielding activates tech downtime for 40f Puff’s fthrow/bthrow on spacies will reliably techtrap under 40% if you grab as the shield comes up but they will go far enough from the throw that you’re not going to be able to get there to jab. There are DI dependent setups to get a platform techchase from fthrow on floaties with fthrow. This is more practical with other characters that have fast throws (ex: Marth’s dthrow).
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