HBOX vs SFAT Shine 2016

HBOX vs SFAT Shine 2016

http://flowfeedback.com/feedback/WTXnfRnR5KgExCSpH

Reminder I still do these for $10 a game.

Game 1
BF

8:00 descending fair gets whiff punished
holy goodness that whole sequence of DI was pretttty bad lol, he kept going exactly where sfat could follow up
7:50 stalling over nair range for a spot to land, gets one then trades
7:47 interesting. Immediate fall through pounds at the DD spot, gets CCed though
7:45 lol look how confidently sfat presses down.
7:41 premeditated CC but sfat misses the grab for some reason
hbox is looking for one more aerial to break CC %
sfat confirms no approach then goes for a vertical hit
7:35 pretty ballsy/lazy ledgegrab lol
soooo lucky he didn’t die after that CC jab
7:31 sfat buffered a normal gettup so he gets punished, good DI off the bair though
7:29 lol what a whiff
hbox reads a dj option. sfat needed to delay his dj, which he wasn’t going to do there.
7:23 hbox avoids laser damage by matching inv, fox is going to get stage anyway
sneaks in an upair grab, I think sfat tried to CC but was too late so he walked into it
goes for dthrow trap, techchase, good spacing, regrab, idk why he chose to upthrow that time. I think a second dthrow was better. Oh my, great reaction to the ambiguous DI to get upair upair dash attack. Sfat’s DI makes him tech in. No idea if the jump at the upB was a reaction or read but it was sick.
lmaoooo
all that work to get burned
6:59 ok it sort of resets but hbox can’t cover ledge.
sfat ledgedash upsmashes again, whiffs but gets a vertical punish as hbox is slow.
6:50 hbox funnels sfat upward to get an upair but runs out of jumps lol
6:47 amazing spacing to get that grab
lmao same shitty as DI pattern makes hbox take a million damage
6:39 the sneaky dtilt. This is really hard to space over and normally puff wants to delay a bair in that situation.
6:33 hbox has to wait outside to make sure he doesn’t get vertical punished
misspaces and gets daired out of a juicy punish opportunity
6:29 nair covers fallthrough and land shield. Neat.
late reaction to sideB. He might have felt he was low enough and meant to rest the end of it.
6:27 hbox pokes high then immediately occupies the space that sfat left behind.
6:23 emptyland grab off a SH
reads a DJ, sfat stalls but for too long and gets clipped
6:15 sfat is just looking for some damage
hbox for an opportunity. He gets a little greddy and gets baired.
6:07 sees the upair before sfat does it and stops drifting forward. That was overzealous.
this time the tempo works in hbox’s favor and he lands the nair but misses the grab, gets jabbed, sfat flubs the kill
they move to center and want to bair each other, lol
5:59 sfat is obviously very confident just crouching bair.
He’s not confident about a dash back out of crouch though so he FHs then does a delayed jab bair
5:50 hbox reads a jump that doesn’t happen
sfat is putting moves out around his perimeter. That’s a little dangerous.
5:48 sniffs a counter attack and WD back grabs
more super shitty DI
5:42 the DJ fair was a good idea but done too low
5:40 this FH nair fadeback is funny. It would have hit but they’re both nervous about it.
FH nair fadeback is generally ok for a safeish way to challenge the space in front of puff.
hbox foregoes a direct punish attempt that would whiff and attacks the space behind the land. Happy with the damage, backs off, trying to bait aggression.
It works but he does this super slow platform drop upair so no dice.
5:36 hbox had a really good descending position but left it empty for too long.
5:34 sfat gets indecisive with DD spacing, gets baired.
wow amazing option coverage from sfat vs hbox’s approach. He’s very obviously studied. Gets the grab and the kill.
5:23 hbox throws out an invincible low commitment poke lol
sfat dashes right around it. In order to do that he has to be reading the timing of the bair itself which is impressive. Shows a lot of familiarity with hbox.
Running shine whiffs, gets baired. Knockdown converts to heavy stage and a grab.
Fthrow introduces a high/low mixup. They both choose high. Hbox waits for the inevitable upB and gets the edgeguard.
5:11 crossup after the nair is unsafe. That’s lazy of hbox.
shinegrab bitchhh
5:07 tight spacing by hbox vs sfat’s descent
but misjudges tempo afterward and gets vertical punished.
5:02 telegraphs the edgecancel, sfat just sits there and uptilts. Hbox isn’t used to people knowing his likes lol
4:58 I think that sfat’s jump is a read on some aggression. But he wasn’t sure if it would be a grab or a dash attack etc so he jumps over it.
whiffs the grab barely but shine is frame 1.
4:52 hbox slowly buys space, sfat gives it to him looking for a bair on an overextension but is a little slow.
4:46 lmao terrible read
4:43 look at how confident sfat is that hbox won’t approach any more than slightly with bairs. All of these bairs could easily hit but hbox is unwilling to give up the capacity to fade back.
4:39 CC run past vertical punish. Very safe.
misjudges the tempo, hbox gets a bair and a dash attack techchase
reads another shine sideB attempt and that’s the game
of would be but hbox suckkkkks
lmaoooo
sfat walks up calmly and uptilts the inevitable shitty nair
goodness.

So my read on this game is that normally hbox gets some free stuff by playing puff and having a hella scary punish game that he’s not getting here and it makes situations that he’s taken for granted a little tense. Note how sfat isn’t allowing him to buy space with bair unless it means that fox can FH bair over them. The remainder of the time he challenges them with CC or thumbs his nose at the possibility of a fuller fade forward (a possibility that isn’t real because hbox won’t do it). Note the disrespect of puff’s unreal falling nair threat. Generally speaking, sfat is playing the MU well. He’s distinguished between perceived and actual strengths and weaknesses and I don’t think hbox went into this game quite prepared for that. However, hbox also dropped crucial punishes that would have definitely secured him the game.


Game 2
DL
gonna focus on positioning

8:00
hbox goeshigh to descend on any options, too high and allows sfat under
safe reads a bair, whiffs
7:54 FH back is safe vs everything but approaching nair, gets a punish
no direct followup so retreat and get another, should be a dead fox already.
7:45 have to stall off stage until fox gives a reason not to
dair was slightly misspaced and didn’t respect sfat’s capacity to do more shines
7:36 baits him up but suboptimal exacution
wait outside of bair
whiffs, FHs into retreating space again but misspaces pressure and overcommits so fox gets out
7:31 challenges for the punish with option to crossup without committing to a punishable one, neat.
7:22 doesn’t FH this time, stays low. I think because he was already close to center.
7:18 safe descending nair covers jump
techchase
bad spacing vs ledgedash
edgeguard was hard, didn’t want to commit so early
7:06 just holding center, fox is so high
6:57 bad nair because no fadeback. Keeps doing them in this spot.
6:54 waits outside of aggression again
6:46 another should be safe nair, could have gotten away with n earlier fair after. Soft would have done it lol
6:40 doesn’t have tempo so that bair is unsafe
scrappy rest of the stock.
6:22 whiffs a bair, second attempt is late
lmao dair upsmash on fox
6:08 gets center, burns it on a nair predicting a jump. Sfat continues to not jump there though so has to shield. This is an interesting nair but it’s obv that he’s just guessing. This isn’t a read, sfat has only jumped into one of like 7 so far.
6:05 upair was bad
6:00 goes to nair again, recognizes bad tempo, retreats to side
more safe FHs on prediction of fox running back
a stuffy nair which is super hard to punish, gets a WD back grab, should be dead fox
whyyyy is he doing this dash atackkk? Maybe because techcase on plats is harder? Dunno. Don’t agree at all.
sfat gets to ledge, hbox spaces around ledgedash which is clearly preferred, gets upair whiff punish
edgeguard
5:35 grabs ledge then ledge jumps with inv to avoid lasers and gain height
gets space with a nair crossup then takes center, would probably have gotten that grab
5:29 nair was too high but gets away with it
retreat after whiffed uptilt was predictable
5:25 takes possession of center, whiffs bair but sfat is late so uptilt is good.
no reaction
has to settle for grab
upthrow pound but not high enough for combo to rest
lol does it again but bair this time
sfat has great DI
5:13 good descent but misspaces
5:10 shitty nair
5:06 doesn’t do the hbox tiny drift this time so he gets baired lol
5:03 fakeout to get ledge
just have to buy space safely
4:55 nair works because of placement at top of jump. sfat was staying empty until low. Good recognition.
4:48 soooo lucky
4:37 great position to grab
4:34 crazy angle to get around that bair
4:32 position outside then whiff punish
4:29 whoops
4:28 actually really cool adjustment from sfat. This time he ledgedashes empty then fills the space that hbox stas in with FH nair.
4:22 just have to avoid getting baired
4:21 lol
4:15 accidental crossup. That sucks.
a bit too high vs retreat too, why is he thinking that?
amazzzing DD from sfat. Great awareness of options.
4:00 meh nair
hbox is staring to overextend. He’s doing a lot of immediate bairs and sfat can just run and gun. It’s ok if one lands and kills for now but if hbox misspaces and takes like 40 then it’s bad.
3:55 wow read the shittt out of that jump but fox’s nair is pretty darn fast
3:48 bad descent, had no tempo
ok close enough
3:35 stalls outside of bair range
high center vs retreat
does the bair nair, sfat doesn’t take it, idk what the roll was for
3:28 good angle for fair
whiff punish grab
misjudges % so fox lives, could probably have dj techchase rested safely
oh just does more upairs? I guess that works. Ok then. Sick.

Not getting so much out of neutral, not optimized reward in specific recurring positions


Game 3
FD
8:00
rising bair to cover self then short stall and SH bair for space.
covered land with uptilt but sfat is spacing so well!
7:57 multiple FH bairs to protect ascent from grounded fox then descending bair on unsure spacing
sfat moves out of hitstun well, gets another shine
7:52 hbox keeps doing uptilts after lands in case sfat is late to punish attempt
7:47 pound was on fall confirm, no followup
sfat crosses up after hbox doesn’t give himself enough space to react to dash
7:41 this is a neat bair
7:37 waits for roll in then jumps after the jump
takes some damage assuming sfat will back away
7:23 predicts that fox will run in but pulls back too far
7:16 moves to fall on the third fox running crossup
7:14 jumps too soon to react to techroll with grab so he dairs, then whiffs the followup
7:10 meh spacing
7:08 takes lasers as an invitation to gain vertical space
7:05 really good spacing but bair is barely too early
aerial then grab never works
7:02 poor spacing to punish a preemptive nair
6:57 kinda stupid
terrible jump by sfat
6:54 hbox was in a bad position where he had to telegraph which angle he wanted to cover
so it’s better that he preserved center
6:52 kinda cool nair, it covered that jump and was safe from a grounded approach
6:32 keeps doing these ledgejumps. Not sure if intentional. Not bad, not great, unless I’m not understanding something.
nair was a bait, sfat took it
no idea why he rolled of all things after the bair
6:22 shitty spacing out of inv
6:19 nair was started too early so no hitbox on landing
buys space with bair
6:15 grabs but sfat chooses to jump
6:10 either the worst spaced bair of all time or he read a jump that didn’t happen
6:03 actually a super dumb bair, sfat was clearly ready to CC, but he got lucky
went to empty land grab but sfat jumped preemptively
5:59 no reaction to DI
5:57 don’t agree with this fair, sfat has been CCing too much
5:52 bairs high to punish any more FHs from fox
he’s also high enough that he can drift over or away from a running approach on reaction
sfat would have to read the height and timing of a drift to punish it
slips through but doesn’t recognize vertical punish in time.
5:47 fox lasering means that hbox can assume a descent position at 1/3 stage. That’s pretty strong, lots of options.
5:42 bair is misspaced and overly eager.
5:21 at 144 the goal is to not get baired and get a grab so it’s ok to take a bit to get off ledge
sfat is good about not overextending
5:16 WD forward was tricky, sfat hesitated, that should have been the grab
5:11 pair of nairs catches all grounded options
5:09 fair is designed to catch the jump
5:08 probably a roll read. Should be a dead fox.
sfat DIs the pound correctly
5:04 horrrible bair
5:01 hbox thought that sfat meant to run away when he turned his back
4:54 shitty ass pound
4:53 don’t agree with this bair, should have gotten uptilted again for continuing to come straight down and play on tilt
4:48 sfat can’t dj from shine and sweetspot ledge so the shinestall just gets him killed for free
4:34 ok looks like ledgejump is on purpose to get high and avoid laser damage
4:30 sfat spaces so that landing is uncomfortable and challenging him is scary. Don’t want to trade with upsmash. Forces hbox to ledge
fair was a bait, sfat doesn’t bite
4:25 read the shit out of that WD back

positioning goals were not very clear and I think he played on tilt, swung at first given opportunity too often


Game 4
BF
8:00 challenges wait, then a run in, sfat nairs over. Could have maybe turned around in time to get the shieldgrab.
7:56 reads the jump but doesn’t respect low hitstun
7:51 another position read
7:49 I think that’s just a bad WD. Hard not to do that one though.
7:47 sfat makes a drift read, gets a great shine
hbox should have recovered under the stage right.
7:40 bad fair prevents a reaction to the jump.
smart lightshield by sfat
good spacing on descent by hbox
hbox flashes shield but drops it and gets shined, no idea why since he l cancels with Z
7:35 bair is ok
7:32 WD was really close to too slow but gets a juicy bair
SH then FH covers all tech options, was good
7:30 hbox reads a DJ, I think he could have reacted from that position
should have let go of ledge and immediate bair
7:26 hbox always grabs in this spot and sfat knows that
good reaction to the situation to wd out of the way
crossup bair is possible punish, probably safe
ftilt was almost definitely accidental
7:22 hbox was late to get there, he reads a FH out of the way which is weird to me since sfat literally just rolled in the same spot
7:16 looks like hbox uses dash attack at high %s like he uses uptilt at low %
7:06 super bad fade
7:04 I prefer uptilt here but bair is lower risk
7:03 baited/predicted a jump
7:00 positions to cover multiple angles
again
out of place to cover fall
6:51 committing so high forfeits stage
6:39 this bair is a problem, half a fadeback and half a commitment = a whiff
6:32 nair is really bad option coverage here
6:27 bad spacing
6:24 didn’t respect sfat’s capacity to be there again, gets shined
6:18 overextension
6:16 should be easy techchase rest, chooses to bair but there’s no followup possible
6:13 whiff punish, interesting because the FH bair was pretty safe and allowed specifically for this
don’t like this bair even on hit
6:10 this bair wasn’t safe vs jump
6:07 could have rested here too but the full edgeguard makes it worth it not to
5:54 stalls high then uses platform to maneuver out of fox’s way. Sfat could have predicted but didn’t so hbox gets to center.
5:52 no idea what this grab was
5:48 good reaction to the waveland
5:41 was a good dj by sfat
5:37 lol hbox was like “oh crap this nair is bad”
5:33 Hbox stalls outside and sfat gifts him some space looking for a whiff punish which hbox proceeds to give him but sfat chickens out
hbox is waiting for sfat to run into a bair but the longer he does this the higher the risk of a vertical punish
this is all moderate or high risk low reward
5:12 sfat just walks up into that space and uptilts
5:05 sfat reacts. I think that unless their shield is tilted for a drop then you should wait out their spotdodge
5:03 once sfat commits to the gun he can’t stop an advance with an aerial
5:02 oh ok so shine makes this upair unsafe without perfect timing. That sucks. Means that you have to settle for dair to a mixup.
good spacing
4:52 upthrow was probably better
bad spacing to trade with upsmash, you have to respect the ledgedash by now
4:47 terrible nair
4:42 bad jump
4:39 same iffy situation where first bair whiffs, second bair overshoots where an uptilt or dash attack wouldn’t but is lower risk
4:24 good spacing
4:15 no idea what this ftilt is
4:10 vertical punish, could have faded back on reaction to jump
sfat just waits under with uptilt

some bad plays in important spots, not clean spacing in general, lack of good punishes
can easily optimize recurring habits/situations

Unreactable Range Project

Flawed methodology, might come back to this, might not.

Stage Dimensions

edited the png found at https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/44i6d9/stage_dimensions_comparison/

for ease of reference.

Refreshing Puff's Ledge Invulnerability

Refreshing Puff’s Ledge Invulnerability

Note: When you grab ledge you go through a 7f animation called "Cliffcatch." You cannot let go of ledge until the second frame of the following "Cliffwait" (i.e. you must wait 8f total). If you try to move before this then you will buffer an action from ledge. Conveniently, Puff's cute little grunt sound will be cut short if you are accurate, so that's a good indicator for your timing. If it sounds like one note then you're good. Two: you're late. Buffered an action: you're early.
You can practice this stuff in frame counter.



Aerial Refresh
Let go of ledge, double jump away, input an aerial, then fade back to ledge and regrab as it ends.
Fair is coolest because it shows off either your sick finger finesse or that you claw.
perfect execution:
grabs on 42
12f of vulnerability.


Sing Refresh
Fast fall from ledge, double jump on the 12th frame and rising sing
perfect execution:
grabs on 38
8f of vulnerability


FFDJ Refresh
Fast fall from ledge, double jump on the about the 12th frame.
perfect execution:
grabs on 38
8f of vulnerability


Pound Refresh
Let go of ledge, immediately rising pound.
perfect execution:
active on 13-28
grabs on 47
17f of vulnerability (30-47)


S0ft Dashing
This is like a hax dash for puff but requires interacting with the stage's solidity.
Let go of ledge, fast fall for 5f, then double jump while pressing forward to grind against the side of the stage. Once you’ve popped up over it enough, waveland backwards and tap down to buffer a ledgegrab.
perfect execution:
grabs on 30
0 frames of vulnerability
https://gfycat.com/AltruisticPerkyCollie


For ease of reference:

Puff's perfect ledgedash has up to 9f of inv, allowing shield, dash attack, jab, ftilt, uptilt, grab, up smash, and down-b, but due to her traction/jumpsquat poor range and no invincible aerials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Flj_QcVeQM

Puff's fair is active 7-22, IASA at 35 (13f endlag)
bair is active 9-12, IASA at 31 (9f endlag)
nair is active 6-28, ends at 49 but will likely be ACed after 29.
https://smashboards.com/threads/jigglypuff-hitbox-and-frame-data-nsf56k.303202/

CC is extremely strong vs all of these, usually leaving the victim at a minimum of +9 in frame adv
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WOSYc6yx8cSp7oFrfTYpwZcBZEoGTy1dO5bpaY-O4AY/pubhtml#