Wednesday, February 25, 2015

4% vs Wenbo


Notation is by in-game clock. Watching in slow motion so what I say is possibly hard but should be still humanely reactable provided you aren’t trying to play too far ahead.
Doing this for my benefit to so gonna be really thorough. Please correct me where I’m potentially wrong.

Game 1
7:58, grab after the bair
7:54 unnecessary/premature double jump, gives wenbo too much room plus he can go under you bair, he gets under and nairs right after.
7:52 andale would have rested after getting hit lol but bair is good obv. I would have tried to follow and upair after, which would have at least gotten him in shield next to the ledge. Your drifting out after doesn’t look punishable and gives you stage because you’re at reactable range though. 
7:50 I think you jump too early and then the that nair starts too early.
7:48 Did you read his dj? If he doesn’t do it you get baired. Good fadeback after to account for no tumble. Potential grab after but looks like you thought he would SH aerial instead of dairing nothing lol. Oh then you try to do it but too late, haha.
7:45 yooo he leads with laser grab? 2015. I guess you could have buffered spotdodge and that could have covered everything (maybe upsmash oos? but that’s pretty cheesy). That’s a sucky spot though.
7:43 you’re a little late with the uair but I wasn’t expecting him to bair the platform either. There’s a free reactive bair after he drops through but you did what looks like a preemptive nair that barrrely misses. He does a great shine to cover your grab but you anticipated? sick.
7:38 I think filling your sh with an upair wouldd have clipped him. You definitely have no need to jump left. He catches you not having godlike spacing after (; _ ; ).
7:36 That was a fast grab geeze.
I don’t like this nair to fsmash at all. It covers the sideB on stage option twice. If you had jumped forward instead of backward he’d be dead under 60%. Fox wouldn’t but falco would. Amazing. But now you have to keep fighting him.
7:35 you can’t bair him there but upair maybe.
7:34 should be able to grab his run-off dair. I don’t know what puff did instead.
7:28 really well placed fair. I try to do those but don’t wait the heartbeat so mine are bad. Your choosing spacing after instead of pressing for an unreal hit is good too.
You clearly had that upair, small flub.
7:25 you hung around in one spot for too long deciding where you wanted to go. I bet if you had just run forward you could have baited that run off dair again instead of this reactive sh one. He earns a grab to edge harass off it since your % is high enough that he can start effectively zoning but whiffs a bair so you get a nair. I think sh ac nair would have linked where fh nair didn’t. I recognize that the fh one was safer but don’t know why. Probably because of the wider arc? But in this situation it was a whiff punish so didn’t need one.
7:15 lol that nair was funny.
Balh blah more zoning
7:12 ok at least the initial bair is scary. Fishing like that you’re asking if he can successfully whiff punish with bair. If he can you die if he can’t you cheese your way back on stage. He’s too busy doing god knows what though.
7:10 either godlike spacing or really lucky whiff lol. Backthrow, he djs as you run off which is ideal for you but again you nair back instead of forward. This time he does choose on stage though but you’re slightly misspaced. If you made this edgeguard process reactive instead of preemptive then you would have killed him twice.
7:07 he does an idiot bair so you bair, he makes you nervous with some nonsense but you keep good spacing and get a second bair. Should have held back with it at that % (I think but could be wrong) probably would have caught his dj with fair or whatever. You get the sideB anyway (he feels like he lost the last edgeguard so he doesn’t want to play the game and is going for a gimmick, right?)
Bad upsmash. Eassssy fsmash. Spacies upBing from under like that without a wall to grind is a free fsmash every time.
6:58 dunno how he dodged that upair. You’re clearly fishing with that fsmash and pound.
6:50 You intentionally bait the repeat sideB? Then you cover on stage and ledge with fair, good. Agh but then are too slow and get spiked. That actually looks like a case where canceling dj with sing to grab earlier would have been optimal lol.
Had you finished your first edgeguard you would have been up a stock with only 40%

Easy pickup on respawn.
6:32 lol I think you might have shield poked his full shield. I learned from sleepyk you can do that. Spacie feet/tails poke out early. Could have stayed closer earlier but because he didn’t fall through the platform instead of horizontal neutral (falco’s favor) you get to play vertical spacing (puff’s favor) and catch him SHing in.
You have to back off because of low hitstun just like last stock.
This is a weird problem. I don’t know if fair/nair is even worth it at low %s vs falco because you just can’t get anything off of it. It’s not hard to get but I don’t like resigning to having to win neutral 3 times against a space animal before I can even make that beneficial.
Bair at least you can preserve your position but it’s also hard to net bairs from the same situations. Blegh. Probably have to invent and memorize combos.
6:28 he catches you jumping at the same time. Have to make sure that you’re on an off tempo otherwise you lose your capacity to weave.
(6:25 puff’s body is so bulbous that it makes her ok shield bad, right? It’s hard not to get shield poked after 3-4 hits. Tilting my shield forward gets me poked a lot, which is stupid. So far all I’ve come up with as a solution is 

* shield DI away whenever possible (it actually ruins falco’s pressure completely. One shield sdi (not asdi) input during pressure and he can easily whiff and get grabbed. Also note that his shine hitbox extends behind him a little bit but doesn’t go any farther forward than his body. It’s offset from and not the full size of the full hexagon graphic.

* tilt shield up for dairs to possibly make them grabbable.
* WD out fsmash on reaction to early aerial after a shine
* lightshield after two hits the rest of the time and pray lol)

6:21 he made that questionable pound good by staying there but you needed do tilt it down.
6:18 I was xpecting an uptilt so I would have missed that tech as well that sucks.
6:16 I would have naired through him instead of fadeback fair. In this case fadeback fair would have been better if you hadn’t gone as far so you can grab his landing after.
I also would have SHed (maybe nair) immediately on landing specificalyl to avoid being cornered like that.
6:12 it’s already clear that he has to land at the spot where he dairs. You get a free whatever aerial you want.
6:10 I think that falco going to the top platform means that imediately puff goes to the side. That way if he comes down you are above his lasers and if he stays up you don’t try to go straight up and get caught by surprise with a fallthrough aerial.
Way too much respect given when he comes back down. By both of you, actually.
6:07 him empty jumping forward there was weird. I have no idea what he’s trying to do right now.
6:05 slightly misspaced fair otherwise super cool spacing to lead up to that point. Really unfortunate that you die from that.

5:59 maybe because you are invincible you could have tomahawk grabbed instead of faired his shield. Hadn’t thought of that before. It’s hard to get more than stage position from invulnerability, I will have to think about that. You take damage by putting yourself in a bad position when your 2 seconds runs out.
5:57 fair from below shield at that angle seems good. Worst case he stays in shield and shines oos? You can probably fade back on reaction to it not poking and do it again in that case too. Not sure.
oooh sick positioning grab. I definitely would have tried to upair nothing after the fair and gotten hit. I think that you could have done your waveland regrab there but I don’t know the %s for that.
Weird situation to easy ledgehog.
5:44 you force a position that’s gonna take 2 seconds to resolve, wenbo doesn’t feel comfortable and takes off giving you free stage, which you take, he bairs because you either had already committed to or chose to WD instead of bair. You easily stuff his dj but he’s at 0 so it’s just 1 fair and avoid the counter-attack. You could have punished his land with bair had you weaved back towards him after he missed.
5:37 I don’t think that shielding lasers is worth it because you’re at best going to take shield damage and then have to take the time to drop shield to move. Crouch or WD and taking the negligible % and hitstun if they pull off the lowest laser and nothing if they can’t seems better to me.
you try to jump out of the way of his jump but because of laser stun you can’t in time so you needed to shield.
5:35 I think he had a free dair but gave it up for fear of a trade which was dumb because of his % lead. He lets you back. No reason at all to pound (but if there was downward angle is superior in that situation).
5:33 this time he doesn’t give himself the time/space enable his approach with a laser so you easily slip away from and punish his dair. He screws up and loses his stock at 19%. Ouch.
5:26 wenbo makes a biggg commintment with his inv so you actually could have rolled behind him and grabbed him at 0 lol. You prioritize stage but the laser shine was a really good answer. I think you could have maybe WD or even dropped shield fsmashed his dair.
5:23 The SH away fadeback to dj bair in the next one was great. I think you could have upaired after seeing him jump. Because he was on the way up he couldn’t dair. Don’t know what the airdodge was for.
5:21 You FH weave in fair punish his dair. % is so low that he could have CC shined but I don’t think he knows that so he shields and gets grabbed.
That was suchhhh a juicy %. Absolutely free upair techtrap rest or techchase rest (which I find way harder because missed tech screws me up and all the noobs miss tech lol).
5:14 you can’t be in shield and let falco get that close to you but I’m not sure what to do if it ends up happening. Maybe buffer roll away? No idea. I’ve been in that situation a total of 4 times lol WI.
4:59 blagh and it ends with cheese.
4:53 You catch him, don’t pivot your grab, wowww he jabbed that fsmash? what a baller lol. Then you outspace him till he’s off stage. The fsmash is bad because it leaves him with a lot of angles and you in endlag when you could have covered the same read + more at less cost with a fair. It could have traded maybe but at that % you still win.
At this point the falco isn’t occupying space and is just fishing for hits so you both fumble around until he dies.

You dropped a handful of punishes that would have made big big differences. That seems to be a puff constant lol.
I also don’t know if I’m reading too much of myself in this but I think that you are thinking a similar wrong kind of one step ahead. A lot of the time I just float to where my brain tells me to and hope that there’s a kill waiting for me there. Sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong. I realllly don’t like playing like that.

There are definitely places where you try to get the preemptive punish but there was no need to (see: the edgeguards. You could have easily covered the option you read plus others on reaction had you allowed yourself the chance).
Puff might have to go for some reads in addition to reactions but I think the fulcrum might be that the puff player has to be cognizant and actively choose which one in which case.

I think that if you win because your guess happened to be right but you would have lost if you happened to be wrong then consider it a loss because you gave control of the outcome to the other player.

Puff gets bigger gains positioning herself for the next step vs stuffing it with an aerial.


7:58 free grab but you baired nothing so you couldn’t get it. You tried to cover yourself and his trajectory but messed up, that’s ok he couldn’t get anything at such low %.
You’ve had several good ideas just a litttle bit too late in a row.
7:50 lol in the player’s minds you won that grab so you both reset the situation.
7:48 I think he thought you would fade back so he inched too close and got baired.
Unfortunate trade, you could have grabbed him as he ran forward after if you reacted fast enough. At the very least you should have SH faired rather empty FH. Puff doesn’t get anything from being that high but the risk of bair damage and you denied yourself the corner.
One of the things I’ve started to look for in neutral is fox running at me too close for SH nair to come out before I can SH fair him. It seems free but I don’t know what to do if he shields. Probably just keep going behind him. Might lose to bair oos. Would have to see.
Similarly, if he dashes away and I’m close enough then SH fairing after him denies him all options but having to break his DD range to a run, get hit, or shield.
7:46 You tried to nick him with a falling uair and he rolls away. Generally speaking I think that falling upair that isn’t confirmed is really bad. it’s very easily CCed or straight beaten. I don’t know what a better response is to that situation if there is one. Hbox would have empty land grabbed.
7:44 wenbo makes a big commitment with that dash attack but you were too close so you can’t profit and end up taking 3 hits. The last bair was ‘cause you didn’t respect his priority in that space.
7:41 ah he caught you.
7:37 I’m assuming he tried to upsmash. Could have killed you. I don’t like the waveland on when he’s DDing right there and with the whole stage behind him. Don’t be afraid to use the ledge as pseudo extra stage. Like, puff doesn’t care as much about stage position because she has extra jumps to inflate her horizontal real-estate off the stage. If you don’t do actually do it than that perk is null. Also when you space your back to him he has to give you more breathing room.
7:35 Dunno if you had much of a say on if that grab would have hit or not. Good DI on the jab.
7:32 he flubs another whiff punish and you catch him with a nair when he’s getting situated again. Upthrow or backthrow would have been better.
7:27 slightly too late of a reaction but I think that was pushing what is possible to react to. I would have fallen under him with an upair instead of dj bair. Because you went high and missed you take damage. Then he surprised you.
7:17 you FH and land within reach as your inv runs out so you take 20. That sucks.
7:15 I don’t like that fsmash, he accounted for it. I think the real answer was pivot grab.
7:13 the moment he firefoxed you should have jumped out to fair him.
7:12 he won the rps but I think you could have CC grabbed?
Did anna tell you about the CC grab we made? You hold down, L and mash A and Z. It’s really really good.
7:09 another fsmash that had you given yourself a moment was a free grab.
You can CC nair until 85% so there’s no reason to shield some of them. Free grab of fsmash depending.
Some weird stuff happens then you die.
6:55 lol
6:47 you started that nair a little too far away otherwise it would have been golden
dash attack is CCable until 91
6:46 you start the dj fair a little too high and don’t react to him running past you.
6:44 I don’t think that nair is safe on shield even after fadeback if you don’t hit it at all. 
6:33 dj away bair would have maybe worked here. I think that jump away from them bair is underutilized because you have to use the c stick and as a result foxes aren’t used to not being able to run close behind those jump aways.
6:31 he catches you shielding but in that sequence I don’t know if that was very easily avoidable.
6:26 you should have upthrown. That was a slick hog but you died instead of him in the aftermath of your throw.
6:17 ok you catch him, then you literally catch him haha, I’m assuming that you didn’t rest for the “quick kill, quick rest, then we’re even” strategy but you miss your bair chain after the upair.
I reallly don’t like the fsmashes. They cost you a lot. this match. The rest of the match is a lot silly stuff.

This MU isn’t fair at all so we can’t really afford play it like it is. (; _ ; )
You have to kill him the 4 chances you get and you have to help those 4 chances appear but that is tough because fishing is so bad. I haven’t figured it out.
Neutral seems impossible. I don’t know how to play it without either tricking them into being stupid or memorizing their habits. The difference between a good aerial and an oh god I’m going to die for this aerial are so slim. It doesn’t look like they’re very recognizable either you probably just have to have as many of them worked out beforehand as possible and be conservative about the rest? Don’t know.


7:58 falling fair keeps you from grabbing fox’s landing lag
7:57 falling fair isn’t followupable, I think you could have gotten a grab off any other aerial or just rested him if you were andale
7:54 potential pivot grab to punish landing
if fox is hopping around like that puff can definitely just grab his land just like fox can bully her’s
7:50 too late, are you unnecessarily jump canceling your grabs?
7:45 he reacted to you overlapping before you did
Holy goodness that was was a close nair right afterward. You get the grab. This is perfect percent for upthrow techtrap. Downthrow is a bad choice but he DIs in which is restable on reaction for sure. He techs in, you preemptive nair fsmash. That’s not followupable and he doesn’t even have to tech until 62 from initial nair. Uptilt or grab or rest etc. All of this was 100% reactable.
7:36 You keep rolling away to get out of a situation which is understandable but there might be a better “get me out” option that doesn’t get you so far out that fox is at an adv (I don’t know what that would be)
7:32 upsmash OoS? Seems like a good answer to crossup
7:28 I don’t know what would cause wenbo to upsmash that far away he doesn’t seem very good at that technique lol
Immediately after you bair which only covered missed tech I’m pretty sure. Had you empty landed you would have been able to maybe not cover but respond to the probable tech away and jab reset the possible missed tech. As is it resets to neutral.
You outplay him for the rest of the stock cleanly.
7:16 you wait out his invincibility but that might not have been the best idea (as in I don’t know, consider it). This way it’s a fox-favored neutral when he’s done with you at 70%. If you can make it a vertical spacing game instead then you can possibly get a grab or something as he is jumping around.
7:14 you can waveland onto the stage with enough invulnerablility to get a grab when he gets too close. Technically enough to get an upsmash if you’re perfect.
7:09 wenbo is trying to reduce the area that you can land. When you whacked him with bair you could have taken center stage. I can’t tell if an upair less spaced out would have hit him or gotten you jab upsmashed. As is he read your movement ‘cause what else were you supposed to do?
7:01 good grab. Clear upthrow techchase. Anna says you practiced those and are less inclined to guess now.
I would have done that same upair but I don’t know what its purpose is lol
you clearly couldn’t avoid that nair so you should think crouch cancel grab
6:53 that was an interesting roll
6:49 I don’t think that waveland drop bair is reactable I think you just have to know about it
6:46 when fox is being a little fox bitch and mixing up between lasers and nair for damage I think you have to ignore the lasers, turn your back and reduce the amount of horizontal space they have to work with.
You can’t do AC nairs when they have lots of the stage it just isn’t viable.
Yeah, see he just waits for the nair and tries to confirm a jab. 
6:32 that upsmash wasn’t followupable even if it hit, you’re starting to fish for cheese
6:30 wow that was unfortunate, he asdi’d the nair down so it canceled his hitstun I think. 
6:24 see how the bairs make it harder for him to whiff punish and easier for you to work the space?
6:21 ok there’s the grab now backthrow. You covered the dj but I think thought he had more % than he really did/he went all in on that airdodge
6:17 fsmash was maybe actually good here because of his limited options
6:05 playing neutral vs this kind of fox DD correct as far as I can tell.
He swings, lands, gets grabbed. I think you can still waveland regrab at 0 on DL but could be wrong.
6:00 by getting spooked you give him back the stage.
If you can confirm it downward angled pound is good at this %/situation but it’s really bad if you aren’t positive it’ll connect.
5:55 in these exchanges I think you need to prioritize getting him to back off a little bit. His goal seems to be (consciously or not) to cut you off so that you can only possibly land in one predictable space so that he can punish it hard.
yeah same thing as before, corner you, then hit confirm some nonsense 4 frame fox bullshit to kill.

5:37 Oooh ok. Secret Alex Technology. If they’re on the ground in missed tech but you can’t get there in time to jab reset just run straight at them. Don’t try to dash dance around a supposed get up attack. Just run right at them. They have 5 options, all of which are totally reactable.
1/2) get up attack/normal get up (very probable), shield double tap A. You can’t tell the difference on reaction but shield double tap A option selects it. You can easily tell they’re doing some form of getting up straight and shield in time. You could probably rest the attack OoS but not an empty get up on reaction so grab is safer.
3) roll away, dash attack/fair
4) roll back, jump back bair/rest
5) just lay there, raw rest their lifeless body looooool

5:29 that edgeguard covered literally 0 options
You’re fishing with those unconfirmed fsmashes.
5:18 when he goes up you can’t really catch him but he doesn’t get anything out of being up there but a small break so he’s going to come down pretty soon and you can profit from his falling and be ready to grab the land.
Wenbo is just playing for chip damage at this point.
4:57 the first thing he does on coming back is corner you right in that same spot.
that upsmash scared me 
4:53 fair though shields is completely unsafe. All crossup aerials from ledge can be baired easy peasy except for dair. 
Your goal should be to get him jumping
good old jab upsmash

Ok, so getting stuck on the very edge of the stage was what lost you that one. It’s lame but planking until he backs off a bit is better than landing in his lap.

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