Monday, October 5, 2015


vs MidTiers (Pikachu. Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, Doctor Mario, Mario, Yoshi)

who knows

UPB has a lot of landing lag, free rest
The way his up B works is that after each of the 2 jumps his hurtboxes stretch out forever and are super easy to hit with any hitbox in the vicinity. It's so strange that it looks like a deliberate balancing measure by the devs. But if he sweetspots then he skips that section of the animation and snaps to ledge so you can't challenge it at all. SFAT aims to grab ledge as the 2nd jump starts but that's going to be very situational for puff.

Upsmash on Shield
9fhitlag, 10fshieldstun(unintuitive, a lot), -22 on shield. CANNOT SH rest but WD rest has about an 8f window provided good WD to make up for shield pushback.

in my exp if you focus solely on never getting hit the MU solves itself.
you can crouch under most of his moves if you ever have to get that close

like wow
his bair is stupid esp from platform
upB OoS can kill you and pretty early!
Just rest him 'cause the sooner he dies the sooner the set is over and you don't have to play against DK anymore.
He's better at brawl, you're better at melee.

no DJ DK edgeguard:
just get to ledge, (he sweetspots around dsmash)
if early inv bair, if late roll.
if he goes over you attack his 7f of landing lag with AC dair.
if you can’t get to ledge in time then try to space a bair at his head. If you trade then mash grab dthrow one aerial grab ledge.

uptilt rest on no/slight DI is real until ~70% before hit. FH DJ after 40%.

DK grabs you: Hold down and away, (for dthrow) when he switches to cargo roll to full away.
cargo upthrow: Full DI in front and mash jump
He can get an FH DJ upair from 0-give or take 40% if his execution is tight but that’s it.

grounded upB has 24f of vulnerable endlag lmao

traditionally considered a soft counter to puff because fair kills easy and pill spam is difficult to weave through. Just nair and be patient.
Seems like staying grounded until he gives you a reason to jump is best.
I just pick falco and platform camp because I think doc mains are dumb lol but I don't think that puff v doc is bad or hard at all.

just outplay him it's an easier vs doc

so based on hbox vs amsa main really good positions for puff: idk because of 3f nair and dj armor puff doesn’t get much at a time unless yoshi gets upthrown therefor most of her punishes come from hanging at a specific range and then smacking an overextended yoshi on reaction. main really good positions for yoshi: jumping with armor at low % with puff in range on ledge throwing eggs if puff doesn’t allow him on stage or wants to mess with eggs directly above puff with ability to nair/upair on her if puff doesn’t shield/move directly below puff with an upsmash if puff comes down without frame adv on a platform ready to shielddrop upair if puff doesn’t come in from directly from the side
Puff has a pretty simple answer to all those lol, usually just waiting outside. Normally a character would take space to counter this but yoshi doesn’t have a low risk way to challenge puff’s return without hard-reading the angle and timing. Puff’s main gameplan is to just stay safe out of yoshi’s range, do whiff punishes for maximum damage, look for the free kills if he gives them and if he doesn’t then he’ll actually be at 160 pretty quick. There’s a threshold where it’s difficult to react to what yoshi does. Within that threshold you either jump out if given the time or favor shield then look to punish out of shield or roll/spotdodge. To punish these evasive options directly yoshi has to risk getting potentially grabbed/rested if you choose another. In this way it’s a bit similar to the samus MU ‘cause of slow normals + shitty grab. Puff has to act out of shield quickly though or her bad shield health will be a meaningful issue.
With a grab puff should always upthrow then look for more upairs for damage Looks like a super fun MU to practice because it heavily rewards what is fundamentally good for puff (very tight spacing at the very edge of yoshi’s reactive range and systematically shutting down his close range mixups via smart option coverage to maximize your risk/reward, plus at any given time if you notice a pattern or tell it = a rest.) From the yoshi side it looks like optimizing punish game and setup selection after predicting an aerial would make a huge difference, otherwise you are mostly just gonna hope that either the puff player sucks or you can hella out-guess them every game.

when yoshi is off stage he can only DJ or airdodge
armor on DJ lasts exactly as long as the animation, so from f1 after pressing Y to falling (70f, past the apex and until he is done with the sound effect)
therefor if you cancel the DJ then there’s no armor and they’re relying on spacing
so if your hitbox is better than you win which is not hard if you’re spacing
initially, when your move has enough KB to knock him out of armor he goes straight to empty falling
after more % he goes into tumble

relevant moves for breaking armor (I'm rounding decimals up)
move, knocks into normal fall, knocks into tumble
bair/clean fair, 85, 170 (probably later because of staling)
upair, 64,150
pound 60, 165
rest, 0, 14
uptilt, 57, 147
fsmash, 42, 95
dsmash, 108, 236 (not good)
dash attack, 80, 126

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