* stay at or outside of a BF platform length away
* platform reset from bad position
* vs cornered fox land outside of inside edge of platform then prepare to counter his vertical or his horizontal escape
* if he ever has to shield then the base mixup is descending low bair or empty land grab. If he has an answer then counter the answer (if he jumps then you upair under or jup away, if he crouches then you can land grab faster by airdodging down or outside of his range)
* he can’t react to WD FH nair, this keeps him from staying on the ground so close to you
* from further away bairs are strong
* in order to beat both he has to start aerialing in, which invites a CC grab
positioning to grab his land
anything he has to tech
positioning to grab his land
anything he has to tech
If you try to play this fair then you lose so you have to make it unfair.
Get a kill every time you can because your opportunities will be slim.
in neutral if he runs past a point that’s a fair to the face. Until then assume he can nair.
keep your head in the game.
Don’t let him play dash dance to jiggs is useless. Deny him by being aware of his options from DD.
If he FHs you can FH with him.
at 0 you have to SH uair regrab upthrow rest or he won't die.
If under 6% before the grab under a platform waveland up there and regrab as he will not have to tech upair.
AC nair after his dash back is safe? maybe only if it’s a clear run away and not dd in place. Makes me nervous.
you want to WD out so as to be able to pivot and grab his misspaced nair but only after you confirm where he lands (test to see if that's beneficial over a real dash away pivot grab
Neutral with Fox
by FHing at mid range you deny him a nair but
FH too close and he gets a free 15% bair.
too far and he lasers or gets to make things really ambiguous and shitty.
so you want to stay at mid range (where you can bair a dash in). If you accidentally bair during the dash back then your DJ coincides with his dash in and you’re in a bad spot.
jumps should momentarily precede his dash in?
you want to be either up inside him, at bair his dash in, or outside of shffl nair. In betweens you lose?
different whether you are facing him or not, different tools/accessible goals
*can he DJ sweetspot?
*watch for DJ back
*confirm sideB noise
*confirm upB fire
THEORETICAL EDGEGUARD FLOWCHART (needs tested)
Most of the time:
1) The biggest mixup/decision is his “double jump to sweetspot ledge” vs “double jump back (and side B)”. If you choose to cover one you can no longer cover the other. I’m 90% sure it isn’t reactable. If you predict the sweetspot then you have to do the Abu fair. If he dj back sideBs instead then you lose stage.
2) If he djs back then there’s another mixup between on stage and to ledge. HOWEVER if you empty jump backwards toward him with the timing then you can cover both. You want to be falling parallel with him so that if he sideBs on stage you get to rest him (even if he does it extra high and tries to get the platform, doesn’t matter) and if he falls far enough that he has to sweetspot ledge ggs puff fastfalls there first. You just don’t want to be falling so far below him that you have to grab ledge while he can still sideB to stage). This is all very reactable provided that you jumped at the right time.
3) Special note that if he isn’t close enough to ledge to dj sweetspot it then he can’t do 1) at all. In this case as well as places where he’s falling from high enough that you can cut him off if he tries to save his jump until then then the fox is prone to dj much earlier (also subconsciously foxes hate being under the stage). That’s when hbox just jumps back with them, reads djs and gets nasty bair chains. We all do that but that’s why/when it’s actually good.
4) If you correctly position to cover the sideB then his upB isn’t very good (at all) unless he’s waaaay out of the way. If you empty jumped and he didn’t sideB at all then you shouuuld be able to just jump out and swat him out of it since that’s all that he can do anymore. The trick is that he can start his upB at any point above and you have to react quickly enough to think “oh, free fox” and jump out there asap.
Obv you can’t always get to him esp at higher %s but you will always be able to cover his most profitable angle if not just react. Fox that goes high is great because it’s super easy to react to and shark under him.
% range for upthrow rest (after throw)
weird to test because it’s pretty ambiguous when to use double jump but
72% tough yes
80% barely yes
89% barely no
so I’d do upairs after 70
upthrow followups vs full DI forward fox
at 0% before the throw
sh upair, regrab (if he DIs the upair in either direction).
Reminder that upair will not knock force a tech until 6% before the throw. He will land with no lag after the upair.
SH upair, grab is not guaranteed with good DI off the upair.
so fsmash (hbox)
WD forward techchase. You end with just enough time to jab after the WD if missed tech and pretty much exactly as much time as necessary to techchase with WD back rest/grab tech in, WD forward grab tech out, grab tech in place.
Abu techchase. uptilt missed tech/tech in place, grab tech in, bair tech away
sh upair, enough KB to get a fair, but too much hitstun to jump out of so you can WD regrab or techchase depending on DI.
Too much KB from the throw to guarantee sh upair, he can DJ out before it connects.
punishes on full DI behind no jump out of upthrow SH pound then probs techchase (meh)
SH bair (meh)
I think I like just empty SH over there then either techchase or get under his DJ with SHFFL upair
full DI behind w/ jump out of upthrow, double jump bair is the only reliable followup
dthrow on fox combos to fsmash vs in(and slight in) DI from 0-130% hella easy reaction vs DI out at the ledge it's a 50/50. He can't jump until he's about half his double jump below the ledge even at 0. But puff can't get down to him fast enough (even if she runs off the stage instead of SH) to cover both DJ back and DJ to ledge.
CC puff vs strong fox nair (low as possible)
weak nair (fast falled)
fox at 0
puff low as possible bair CC -3
bair no CC +2
AC nair CC -6
AC nair no CC is +0
fox at 12%
puff low as possible bair vs CC -9
bair no CC +4
bair ASDI down -6
fox under 30 (no CC effect) vs low AC nair is close to even, who is + depends on how long puff falls
after 30 low nair is about -8
to reduce laser damage from fox:
• when well outside of nonreactable range WD/crouch/buffer lightshield to space/wait, no superfluous jumps
• WD off of side plat instead of SH
• area level with and just below is safe from lasers and SH aerials, requires him to FH aerial (or aerial from a plat)
• recover vs mid/full stage fox ~ level with top plat requiring him to DJ for any free damage
These points are only relevant beyond the FHFF∆, at or inside that range lasers are bad risk reward for fox.
vs spacies, combos to dsmash that will get a kill/easy edgeguard nearish the ledge
(no easy amsah techi)
3% for pummel, 8% in lasers no DI, 4% lasers DI behind, 6% DI front
fox upthrow upair kills (before grab, assuming one pummel, no/behind throw DI, no SDI, yes survival DI)
YS 36, 41
PS 39, 45
FD 42, 47
BF 45, 50
FoD 46, 50
DL 59, 64